Hi to anyone out there.
I have a Technics KN7000 and have had a Yamaha PSR2000 and feel I fully understand what an Arranger keyboard is (though I note some advertising refers to them as workstations). I now wish to understand what I could be doing with a non-arranger keyboard, which variously seems to be referred to as "Worksations". For instance if I had a Yamaha Motif what could I do that I can't do on the KN7000?
Thanks
Keith

A better question would be to reverse the situation.

"What can I do on a kn7000 that CAN'T be done on a Motif?"

Many workstations have extensive editing and sampling, but no arranger features. Some feature elaborate arpeggiators that can give you a "psuedo-arranger" in a very rigid, techno kind of way, but to lay down trax...you need to do each part separatly.
eg:
drums(a pattern, or from scratch)
bass (Played live)
strings, horns, piano, etc......

get the picture?
Also, the pro workstations are usually bulit for road use and have better feeling key beds, and heavier cases. No speakers either.

A kn7000 has a terrific sound engine, but I've never gotten "inside" one to comment on the actual synth section. These comments are generalized to include my experience with hundreds of arrangers over the years. Hope something I said helps !

An arranger is a great way to lay down basic trax in a studio (or bedroom), and you can build on your progect from ther. Many players have trouble writing drum parts, and bass lines.....arrangers take all the worry out of that kind of task.

I have one arranger and at least one hefty module in my studio at all times. That gives me both worlds to use.

In addition to what UD said, these workstations (non-arrangers) have exstesive features for modifying and building sounds. In other words, they are synths. So if you are the kind of person who loves to stay days tweequing sounds to get certain sci-fi feel, welcome to the synth world. The only professional arranger that has this capability, IMHO, is Genesys.

Furthermore, the real value in motif es is the fact that it contains the largest library of sounds.

I have always questioned why Yamaha cannot produce another keyboard that is motif-es, but has the styles and harmonizer of tyros: Motif-es-arranger.

You can build sounds with arrangers too. The PSR740 has 761 voices and five DSPs with 38 basic effects and up to 102 presets on each DSP with up to 16 parameters per effect, including LFO, filters, EQ etc. It also has multi-timbrality which allows you to assign any part to any channel so you can layer up to 18 voices though you would normally allow eight of these for the rhythm. Each part also has its own set of effects. The only snag is that you need a computer to access all of this so I use I cheap laptop and XGworks. When you move up to the PSR2000 and higher you get more of the same and you can access a lot of this stuff at the console though you need the computer to get full access. With the computer you can save all your settings as a .syx file and the limit on the number of settings is the size of your HDD. So an arranger is also a workstation, particularly if it has a sequencer. All you need is your imagination and the ability to decipher the documentation.

Bryan

Pilot, I work on a 740 and was completely unaware of any added features thru a computer connection, would you mind ellaborating on that, perhaps ill learn something new today :0

Pilot,

You are correct, but you cannot compare the synth capability of PSR740; which I personally own, use and love; with say motif or triton. SK880 has a wonderful synth capability, and at one time, it was the most user friendly among all synts. However, Equinox has more synth features than it.

God gave certain people the gift and the patience to stare at synth for days in order to generate one groovy sci-fi sound, and those really need the synth.

However, I suspect that the rest buy the synth because of its new and large library of sounds.

[This message has been edited by sk880user (edited 08-17-2003).]

The synth in a PSR740 is similar to that in the MU80/100 series but with only 16 parts and fewer voices. If you look in the back of the 740 manual you will see a great deal of sysex. Yhis is not for the faint hearted but you will learn a lot from it.

From the console you have access to three insertion DSPs and one for the Vocal Harmony. All you can do is set the dry/wet parameter for each effect and combine the DSPs in only a half dozen ways. There is also a variation DSP which is only accessible when recording styles. However, when you use sysex via a computer connection, you can use all 5 DSPs as insertion or use the Variation DSP as a system DSP in any combination. This is in contradiction to the manual which is not altogether truthful and is missing a great deal of info. You can apply one or all DSPs to a part or apply them separately or in combination to different parts.

The parts aren't accessible from the console except for the mod and pitch bend wheels but you get full access via sysex. Each part has reverb, chorus, vibrato etc. independent of the DSPs and you can select any of the voices for each part or layer them on to one channel.

There are several ways to get this access, the cheapest being one of the XG editors such as XG Edit, XGGold or XGPad. These editors only give you access to two DSPs and only the XG voices as they were designed for the stand alone synths. The best method is to use XGworks, particularly for the 740 as the XG editor is excellent and will give you access to the whole synth. However, you need my set of updates to get the full capability. I sent them to Nigel but I have yet to find them on the Synth Zone. Maybe Nigel will read this and tell us where he has hidden them. Meanwhile you can find them on Jorgen's website at home7.inet.tele.dk/js/musik/740pages/ . Look under PSR software.

I use the 'to host' connection to my 740 as my laptop doesn't have a midi port but does have a serial port. In any case, the 'to host' connection is 20% faster than standard midi. Avoid a USB to midi connection as it has poor latency. Maybe USB 2.0 will be better.

Bryan

Pilot,

all I can say is WOW. It seems to me that sysex is a whole another world. I appreciate your post and the info you provided.

Hi Keith,
I have arrangers now but I've also had workstations & synths.
Back in the early 90's, I didnn't think the arrangers of the day had as good a quality of sound as the synths and workstations did.
So I used to create a song in the arranger and then modify it and play it via a synth or workstation, to try and get better sound quality.
Nowadays I only have arrangers as the sound quality and features are pretty remarkable.
The reason I use an arranger rather than a workstation is that I personally don't have the musical skills and knowledge to actually build an arrangement track by track, I'm dependent on an arranger for the style parts to create a song.

best wishes
Rikki

I should have mentioned some of the advantages of XGworks. Not only does it have the best XG editor but is a powerful sequencer in its own right. It also has an auto arranger (a bit ho-hum) and a style block creator (much better). You can use internal or external styles (thanks Rikki) which you can load from your 740 and play around with. Just copy the melody and chords from your fake book and you have a complete arrangement. Just last week I arranged a heavy rock number for string quartet using XGworks. This was for a friend doing a gig at a wedding with his quartet. Apparently went down very well.

Bryan

Pilot,
Can the sysex data be sent in any other way other than from MIDI thru a computer. Can they be stored in a small MIDI file (with no tracks) and loaded into the 740?
Starkeeper

Hi Star

Never thought of that as I use my laptop. I'll put together some files and let you know what happens. Something should work as you can embed sysex into regular midi files. The only problem is that it will have to be done by hand as any program I have for sysex only generates .syx or similar files.

Bryan

A few examples of some differences and some of the things I can do with my Motif that I cannot do at all or do quickly with my PSR2000 and / or my PA80:

Access raw samples so that I can add a guitar picking or fret noise sound to my acoustic guitar patches to add some realism.
In addition, I can assign these sounds by velocity so that they'll only sound in a certain velocity or pitch range. I can use 4 samples per voice then layer 4 voices into a performance. I can access the raw samples on the PA80, but I cannot edit with as much detail, although very good editing for an arranger.. maybe as good as any arranger out there. No capacity for this on the 2k.

I can sample with the Motif.. and to a lesser extent with my PA80 arranger.

With the Motif, assign many various controller parameters to: my mod wheel, my assignable knobs ( that can be controlled in real time ), or to a pedal or breathe controller.

Add a breathe or wind controller to the Motif to give a more real feel and sound to my wind instrument emulations ( works especially well on sax / horn flute sounds )

Add expansion boards with new sounds including physically modeled sounds to the motif.

Motif : Assign arpeggiations of any kind to custom made sounds from my Analog modeling board without using the internal arpeggiator. In other words the arp is built right into the sound with custom note lengths, timings, and scales.. and another arp can be assigned from the kbs main arpeggiator and can be varied back and forth in real time.

Better key feel on the Motif.

In short.. there are many differences for me ( including others that I haven't mentioned ) that make each type of board useful for me depending on what I want to do. I've gone the xg edit route with the 740 and 2k.. and yes..there is some decent editing available.. Still this is not comparable at all to the editing capabilities of a dedicated synth like the Motif, nor is it accessable in real time in the same way ( you are tioed to a computer with xg editing ). The PA80 has much more editing power than any of the Yamaha ararngers I've owned, but still doesn't compare to what I can do on the Motif..

AJ