hey bill, long time no speak!!!
okly dokly, you should (DONT GIVE UP) re-mix this using external monitors (cans are good for tracking, but not much else) even if the monitoring is thru the home stereo system...better than nothing...just make sure any loudness switches are off, and "enhancement"features are off and the eq (if provided) is set to flat.. you play gtr? so why not try recording just the vocal and gtr for the first vs, then lead in with lilmited instruments, mebb just bass and drums for the second, and then all in for the first chorus...just an idea
dennis...(i am d'loading the original now)
mate...stick with page8, much better than the rockabilly version..imho of course!

[This message has been edited by manic2257 (edited 08-10-2005).]

bill,
1. dont use cans for mixing.
2. go to the mic web page, or get the manual for it and find out its maximum threshold eg it might be 100db, and ensure your tracking does not exceed this, and in fact stays at least 10%below this..say 35% for cheaper mics.
3.you don't have to "know" a great deal. use your ears objectively, and listen to your mix on different devices, even a portable MP3 player will give you a different perspective.
4.work out what you want your song to do and then mix it accordingly..for example this song tells a story, let the vocal lead, and use minimum instrumentation, imagine you have a band, drummer, bass, gtr and piano, and mix it like you would hear them playing it.
5.sometimes (mostly!!!) the simpler the better, constant tweaking takes you further and further from the original.
6. minimum use of reverb, it just muddies things up and lessens any definition and pushes instruments back in the mix, and can, in some case make the whole thing sound thin and lifeless (yes i know that seems a contradiction, but it can happen)
7. when you make a major change to the mix, walk away, go play golf, go for a walk, have a sleep, go outside whatever....just make sure you have break and then come back and re-listen.
theres more but i hope that helps you..
soz one more thing,8. its dificult, but mic the gtr,then you'll get more of the nice harmonics, and resonances of the gtr itself, plus the airspace around it, which wil make it a lot "warmer"..about 7-12 inches out and roughly pointed in the direction of the space between the sound hole and the end of the fret board...aim further up the fretboard for slightly thinner.
most important DONT GIVE UP!!!!!
cheers
dennis


[This message has been edited by manic2257 (edited 08-10-2005).]

Dennis, I was lacing my shoes up for a hike (no kidding) and read your post. I'm going to the river, yep. Frogs and hawks and coyotes. Which reminds me... last time I was there, a big hawk swooped down at a coyote pup. I yelled when he was striking and saved the pup. Yay, me.

Anyway, one last question. Yes, when I originally wrote this, I wanted something kinda "mellow." Then I went to the Municipal AGAIN (really) and I got to reading some exhibits and got to thinking about early rockabilly. And I thought it would be very appropos to make this song rockabilly.

Now, I _love_ rockabilly. So, question to Dennis is, do you? Do you not like rockabilly? Or do you not like this particular style? Or not with this song?

I thought I was on to something with that rockabilly thing.

Of course, you and I both realize I could ask 100 people about a song and get 50 answers. But I do respect your opinion, as I do anyone who is familiar with the genre in question.

One of the hardest things about songwriting is you work so long on a song, at least, I do, you get to where you start not trusting yourself. I find that if a song really trips my trigger, it almost always finds favor with most people. But the thing is, sometimes a song has to kind of grow on you.

Lorrie Morgan personally turned down "Woman In Red" five times. That's incredible. A career song and she turned it down five times. Not her agent, not her publisher, SHE turned it down five times. Then she got it.

Recently, I heard a George Strait song. I didn't like it. Second time, I liked it. Third time, I really liked it.

It ain't easy or everyone would do it. I thought mastering songwriting was the hardest thing I'd ever tried. Nope, recording is.

Thanks much!


------------------
Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

Bill,
here's my untrained/untechie opinion . . .

I DO like rockabilly, but I MUCH prefer the first version - much nicer to MY ears!!!
It just seemed easier to listen to = does that make sense??
Just trying to give you another opinion on the "listenability" . . .

Jill

hi bill..
"..i'm a rockabilly rebel...." etc etc
mate i am not averse to rockabilly, or any other "category" of music. i like some but not all of pretty much anything ('cept billy joel and elton john of course)...i just think that your song does not suit that feel, your original idea was the best (ain't they always!!!!)for this narrative style lyric...you know "less is more"..thas all i meant.
i hope you enjoy your walk, it is such a nice thing to do!!!
cya
dennis

hey jill, you have just hit the nail on the head...you used your ears to determine what you liked about this song, not a raft of technical reasons...its why so many "home recorders" can do such a good job, they use their listening abilities...my knowledge compared to a "real" techie is about a pixel on widescreen monitor..i know enuf to get out (or into!!!! ) of trouble when there is conflict in a mix...but ultimately i end up just using my ears.
dennis
peace, out

Hey Bill....I just heard both versions, I have to tell ya that I agree with Jill, I like the first version better, for the same reason that Jill did...easier to listen to and I might add, it seemed that you were more relaxed or more into it naturaly..what I mean is you seemed more tense or pushing it to finish...the voice and vocals were
great IMHO on the first take, the second take appeared to be uneasy so to speak..hell
I don't know about the tech stuff..when I record, I have the tech guys do the stuff that needs to be done...I trust them and it always seems to work for me...also, you changed the lyrics on the second take and I'm not sure which I liked best....good showing...don't quit or give up, hang in there, I believe that you have talent and you should go for the gusto..get it all..
thanks for sharing.....
Tony Rome

[This message has been edited by Tony Rome (edited 08-10-2005).]

I prefer the page8 version, for reasons unknown, even to me.

The Page3 version has a more "driving fast in the highway" feel that I like,
but on the other hand,
it brought in my mind the Dukes of Hazzard flying in the air, with Roscoe not far behind.

Maybe that's what manic2257 describes as "cheesy".

I am not trying to say it is useless, but I like the "let me tell you a story with my guitar" feel of the page8 better.
Theodore

I'm in agreement with the folks here who like the first version better. I always think that 'story' songs are better when they keep a warmer, closer-to-the-listener feel.

To try to better illustrate this comment, think of when you were a child sitting on your grandad's knee and he'd tell you some tale or other. You, as the listener, would hang on every word, and a huge part of loving those stories, which you probably still remember, would have come from the intimacy with which they were told. This is why I like the first version of your song, and, if you can get it even 'warmer' (the techies can handle that part of it as I think your vocal delivery doesn't need to change one bit) then I think the strength of the song will have an even greater impact on the listener.

I want to wish you all the best with this song and hope it does 'break through' for you.

P.S. In the lyric you mention a 'James' who has a statue of himself in the Auditorium. Who is the 'James'? Just curious.

James is James Burton, the living legend guitarist. Started out with Ricky Nelson but is most famous for being Elvis' guitarist for nine years. Guitarist for many other touring acts. Still touring and doing session work. Next week, hosts the James Burton International Guitar Festival with a BIG SHOW at the Municipal with many other living legend guitar gods.

Okay, I'm gonna stick with the first version for now. Later, I'll run both versions by more people.

Think of it this way. There were a few reasons I had wanted to try rockabilly. First, uptempo and bouncy is favored in the songwriting world. Most songwriters have difficulty writing uptempo. Ballads are a dime a dozen. Although, this was never a ballad. But if you have two ways to go with a song, the snappy one will get the most attention. Of course, the song has to work.

Second, rockabilly was largely brought to the forefront at this building. Johnny Cash, Elvis, even in some Hank Williams, you can hear what would become rockabilly.

Third, James Burton. I thought he would love it a whole lot more if it were rockabilly because he is credited with 'inventing' the 'chicken-pickin' guitar style. I could have a good guitarist on this song tear it up.

EDIT: And I have TONS of story songs that are not bouncy and free. PLENTY!

So, I dunno but for now, first version. Thanks to all!

As far as giving up, heck, I'm not giving up, that was just a funny. I might give up for a few hours but that's it!


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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

[This message has been edited by SemiLiveMusic (edited 08-11-2005).]