In another topic my good friend Scott Yee wrote that he likes the Yamaha PSR 2000 even if its styles are short (usually 2 bars), because that's the way a real drummer plays; he added that you can make a style come to life by triggering fills (with a pedal) or playing manually drums (via dedicated pads).
I, on the other hand, am accustomed to Roland styles, which have longer loops (at least 4 bars, but often more, especially in intros and endings) and, analyzing the difference between Roland styles and imported Yamaha styles (even those from PSR 2000 and CVP 209) have come to some conclusions: the most obvious is that, if a style is recorded live (and not step by step), longer loops allow for a greater degree of variation. This is of course more evident for melodic instruments like a piano or a guitar (where you can play a slightly different riff for each bar), but even a bass player or a drummer can introduce a greater variation in the performance in a longer loop. Just think of the intensity of the single percussive hits or the distance between single hits; these are not always the same: it's just like a drummer or a percussionist is musically "breathing" while he plays or there is a "wave" going up and down in the performance. It is often said that some drummers or percussionists play ahead the beat and some behind it and this becomes evident with time, i.e. the length of a loop; I think that all these variations are more difficult to reproduce in a simple 2 bar loop.
To summarize, I think that short, 2 bar loops are more prone to sound lifeless or even sterile (the famous "canned" sound) and I would go even further to add that, with a series of long loops (recorded live by ALL the musicians) it would be possibile to capture the realism of a live performance even for jazz styles and make a style really "breathe"; of course you could always add your fills and throw your odd percussion in (via dedicated pads), but this would be like a cherry on an already tasty cake.
Obviously nothing can substitute the realism of a live performance, but, since we are talking of arranger keyboards I wish that one of the great improvements of the next generation of arrangers could be to have more internal memory to allow realistic styles with long loops, maybe combined with sampled patterns, the way Ketron (and GEM too, if I am not mistaken) are already doing.
Regards,
Andrea

I have just bought the psr740, and so far I have not noticed any boredom with the two bar loops. As I am an improvisational player, I appreciate monotonous stability(musical ingenuity vise) from my keyboard, and enjoy the challenge of adding my own stuff as I go along to make things interesting. I played the pa80 and the roland va 77, and the longer loops didn't do much for me.
Maybe its going to take time before I start feeling it. But on the other hand, i have had my psr2500 for ten years and have never been bored with the short loops, though, some musical styles in general bore me, but thats more taste, than anything else.
With the combo of xp60 and the 740, I am envisioning limitless possibilities for creating interesting live music. Even without the xp60 in the mix i find the 740 provides enough flexibility for improvisational playing. Though, having the xp60 by the side adds a whole new dimension to what i can slip into the improv mix, plus the extra 64 voices doesn't hurt either.
In conclusion I will incline towards Scott's perception of the two bar loops, adding in my perception, that I enjoy being challenged to create the next bar in the loop more interesting than the previous one.


Benz

I notice a common "thread" when people compare drum patterns from one manufacturer to another. Most users tend to "favor" a particular brand right off the bat. It's must be a taste issue, because it is difficult to sway these feelings to another direction. Myself, I like the Korg programmer's idea of what a drummer would do. There are certainly MANY different variables to consider, but the simple truth is - you will most likely respond to one over the other based on personal taste.

It's not in the length of the loop or even the quality of the sample (variables)- the pattern itself, is what drives the groove. We can add to that with other rhythmic techniques, and play along in a style that will compliment the groove, but when all is said and done - if the pattern doesn't "move you", chances are....
it won't with longer measures (or loops) either.

Some of the best times I've had with "live" drummers are the times I played with "beat keepers", and not "monsters". Rhythm is basically a SUPPORT for the melody, and in most cases, a simple approach to the rhythm is easier to work with than a busier one.
This is pretty subjective, because as I stated earlier - either the drums grab you, or they don't. "Feel" is so important to music, and you generate it in many different ways. Having owned all the major players in the arranger world, I have come to appreciate the simpler, more generic rhythms because they suit more styles of music. When the need arises to have a specific drum pattern like .......
"Scenes from an Italian Restaurant" (for example) - I program, buy, trade, or modify to suit the song. The largest advantage of sequenced music to me, is to get the correct drum parts. That song has so many different sections - it would take the entire memory of a keyboard just to handle the different drum patterns used.

In closing - my advice is this (and has ALWAYS been this)
the drummer/arranger is the second most important item in the piece. It follows the melody/vocal, and precedes everything else. Don't try to fight it or "lead" it - it won't work that way. You must follow it's groove, and add the "life and breath" on your own. It will only sound like a machine if YOU get into a mechanical frame of mind and start to play robotic styles, yourself! A terrific blend of man & machine can be achieved with a very small amount of machine. The "human" element is what makes it music. The rest is just a building block. Think "out of the box", and let the "box" do it's own thing.

Dreamer...I am in 100% agreement with you about the monotonous 2 bar style loops. A Drummer or Bass player does not repeat the same 2 bar riff for the complete length of a song.
I have owned previously 2 Korgs, an i3 & i30, these have mainly 8 to16 bar styles plus upto 6 chord type variations for each Var1, Var2, Var3 & Var4.
Some players state that styles can be over complicated, but all keyboards have a part mute facility if one wishes to simplify a style to suit a certain song.

Graham UK

Dreamer
I also couldn't agree with you more on the observation that it takes a few measures for people to recognize a drummer is doing something interesting - if it all goes away within one or two measures - whats the use? But not to take away from folks who like a drummer to be a bit more reserved - it is what makes you feel good as a player which is ultimately the most important thing in my opinion.

I also think that access to longer looping of almost everything on arrangers can do nothing but help.

Mike H

I will incline towards Uncle Dave's perception.
The machine is great at repetition, and even with longer loops, it still repeats the same thing over and over again.
I have no desire to get overly technical, but just this once, I will say that if the longer loops enable a persons short term memory into being fooled that there is actually some improvisational playing happening or "live/realistic" playing then all the power to you.
But even with longer loops there is still repetition, and if you get bored with 2 bar loops, then soon your brain is going to get used to the longer ones (resulting in boredom), and then more and more longer ones, and the cycle will end only when you have a real human player to surprise you at every musical turn.
I personally am happy with the strength of the machine, which is reliability in repetition. Unlike a human player, a machine never tires of repetition. Keeping the rhythms and styles simple in yammie boards has been a major decision by Yamaha, I believe.
Korg, pa80 for example, takes the route to satisfy the longer loopsters. In putting longer loops, korg has taken a big risk, because if the longer loops don't have satisfactory fillings, then the whole loop is useless, ofcourse, you could always turn off the track causing the annoyance, but what if it was the rhythm track and the filling was part of the main rhythm track? You couldn't turn that off could you.
But with yammie, I don't have to worry about any of their loops trying to be "all that". I concentrate on myself, and what i can offer to enhance the simple mix.
Just like the psr2k screen, i believe longer loops detract. I like yammie arrangers because they do a simple thing perfectly. If i wanted realism/complications I would join a band.

For me it runs the gamut. My favorite genres are Jazz Fusion, Blues, and Progressive Rock ala ELP or Yes. For the most part ( although not always ), when I do a blues piece, I like a simpler and less imposing drum ( and bass ) pattern, and sometimes the 2 bar loops are ok for me..but even then I prefer a longer loop that gives a slight variation from bar to bar. When I move toward more complex Progressive Rock pieces and even more so with Jazz Fusion, I sometimes favor very complex drums. In a few cases, the drummer is actually THE or one of THE featured players...( ala the styles of Billy Cobham or Bill Bruford ). In these cases, depending on the feel, I can sometimes get enough flavor in a piece by making and using several variations in my styles, and adding additional drums using the pads, but at other times it gets complex enough that I might use a style's drums as a template to begin with, and then once I have added other instruments, I go back and remove the style drummer and add real time playing or, if the drums are beyond my abilities as a "pad" drummer, drum pieces composed in Jammer Pro or Jazz sequencer.
There is no doubt though that the Korg "programmer(s)" that Dave mentions has given me a lot of good style drums to work with as templates and sometimes even finished products. I too like the way Korg in general has their rythyms set up in the styles. Finally though, I see a bit of improvement in a few of the newer Yamaha styles as well.

AJ

Getting a little philosophical here, but staying to the point:
I believe that there is limited musical real estate. If a machine offers a longer loop (with the aim of providing variation) then it is taking up valueable real estate that could be used by the player, to "breathe" in his/her personality. The more a machine offers, the lesser space there is for the player to offer, following the law of "limited musical real estate", that i just dreamt up.
Expounding upon the previous statement, just because a machine offers more, it doesn't take away from/or add to the players talent, after all the player has more to manage, and thus, has to make more effort(relatively management vise) to produce a good quality piece.
Because I am a little claustrophobic, I, personally, require tremendous amounts of real estate so I can "breathe". Busy loops, or loops that try to be realistic (in emulating the "monster" as Uncle Dave put it) take up real estate. In that way can not a loop be realistic too, if it instead chooses to emulate the "beat keeper"?

Benz

As they say today - "It's ALL good" - As a player that just pounds out tune after tune, night after night - I am not looking for a solo persusionist ... I just want the beat. That enables me to do MY thing, without any distractions. To each his own, but for those of us that play alot - I'll bet that any length loop will become predictabe in time.
It's all about what we add on TOP of these patterns that really matters. There is a reason they refer to drum machines as "side men" - they need to know their place in the music.
For a serious composer, or jazz imroviser, or any free form-type player - NO machine will ever meet the requirememts of a spontanious human brain. These machines are for the rest of us, that just need a cheap backing band that shows up on time, dresses alike, and doesn't drink...... I Love working with cats like that!

Well spoken Dave. The styles don't replace a real player or even a drum beat programmed in real time by a human player, but they give me a good enough starting point to work with so that I can compose and add my parts and touches. I am trained as a keyboard player, so I'm not always the best at drumming, but after I get a foundation to start with ( styles ), then I play my parts and later improvise the rythym parts from there. For those occasions when I play as an entertainer, the styles work well in the role of a backup band. I agree too, that when I use my arrangers in that role, simpler styles allow me to cover more tunes than complex ones do.

AJ