Scott, I like a lot of the things the PSR2100 has and does, along with a few things I don't like...Can you edit a GM drumkit on the Tyros[user], or edit a user drumkit and remap it to a GM location for SMF playback? Tell me the reasons I should get a Tyros? I know you said it has 4 playback markers as does the DisCover5 in SMF play..Does the Tyros read a SMF and show chords in the display automatically as the DisCover 5 does? I know the 2100 can but you have to enter the chords..I do like the harmonizer on the 2100[it seems to be better than the2000], is the Tyros better? Is the keyboard[Tyros]key feel like the Pro[DX7 type]? Does after touch work well and assignable to many applications? Can a volume pedal controll expression to any assignable part, or does it only work globally? Give me your top ten best and worst things about the Tyros..Since I have not checked out a Tyros yet, I would value your comments....Anyone else too..

Fran, I don't believe the Tyros can 'automatically' display Chords in the display from an SMF. It only displays "if" there is chord data embedded in the Midi file. I would be surprised if the Discover 5 could display Chords if the SMF didn't first contain "embedded" chord data in the Midi file.

The Tyros probably has the best onboard Vocal Harmonizer of any Arranger Keyboard on the market at the moment. Also the Keybed on the Tyros has a much better feel than the PSR 2000/2100 IMO. And although some people say that the Live! Grand Piano on the PSR 2100 is the same Sample as on the Tyros, I don't agree with that sentiment. The Tyros' Live! Grand Piano has a much more appealing sound and is of better quality IMO than the PSR 2100's. Fran, the Drumkits on the Tyros are of "much" higher quality than the PSR 2100's. I've stated before that I thought the greatest improvement on the Tyros over the PSR 2000, (the PSR 2100 wasn't out yet), was the great sounding Drumkits. Of much greater use than the unusable Mega Voices "except when playing the Mega Voices in the Styles; there of little worth IMO."

PROS: 128 note Polyphony, Aftertouch, superb Drumkits, very decent onboard Harmonizer, better Key feel, superb sounding Voices, Hard Drive capability, USB, R1 & R2 Voices along with Main and Left, three Foot pedal jacks.

CONS: No onboard Speakers, No Aux Outs, No repeat to Fill function in conjunction with a standard Foot pedal, No ability to call up Styles or Registrations directly from the Hard Drive - (they have to be saved to User Memory first), the width on the Tyros is over 45" (almost, if not already wide enough to be a 76 Key keyoard, good luck on trying to Edit a Drumkit, don't use the Tyros' LCD display in direct sunlight because it's been said it is basically unreadable, the Tyros' Music Stand is not designed optimally - "there have been reports of Backaches and other physical maladies associated with using the Tyros' Music Stand".

Well that's 9 PROS and 8 CONS Fran. I guess that means you should go ahead and get a Tyros because the PROS outweigh the CONS. PS: Talking about weight; the PSR 2100 is over 4 lbs. lighter than the Tyros and with the Tyros you will have to lug around Speaker add-ons if you transport it with the intention of using the add-ons. Something to be aware of.

Best regrads,
Mike

Mike,
The Tyros HAS aux outs. You have twp pairs of outputs to route anyway you choose.

Thanks Mike,, for the record the Roland Discover absolutely reads chords from any SMF..Matter of fact it reads the current measure and the next measure , given enough time to play the right chords,,This is a great feature and I was hoping that the Yammy did this since it has the song markers..Are you saying no way to fixing a drum kit in a position to play the right drums in all sequences?

Alright Dave , give me your top ten , plus and negative,,,,you know what I like?

Hi Dave. The Tyros has Sub outputs- "2" of them - but no Fixed Level or regular Aux Ouputs. I doubt very seriously if you could use the Sub outputs for a Stereo Aux output signal. Plus I'd reckon to say they wouldn't be Fixed Level either if you could. Okay, here's the Tyros' output specs taken from the Yamaha US site:

Phones, Line Out Main (L/L+R, R), Sub 1/2
Loop Send (L/L+R, R), AUX In Loop Return (L/L+R, R), Trim Vol.
To Sub Woofer L/R, To Left/Right Speaker
MIC/Line In - Dynamic MIC (Imp. 250 ohm recommended) Trim, Input Volume, Signal/Over Indicator.

No specfic Aux Outputs mentioned.

Best regards,
Mike

Fran, you are on the slippery slope. Nobody can help you.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 09-01-2003).]

Fran, you can use the Mixing Console of course to 'change' the Drumkits to your liking, ie., Standard1 Kit to BrushKit, etc. and then save the change. So the next time you open that particular Midi file in the Tyros the new Drumkit you choose will be the one the Midi file uses when you play it. You can even change Drumkits in realtime while the Midi file is playing and it will keep using that particular Drumkit you choose until you change it again. You have to remember to 'save' the change to make it permanent.

Maybe I'm not understanding your question thoroughly Fran.

Frank, while I have your attention: Will I be able to us the Hyper Canvas as a wave table, accessing via VanBasco, as we do with VSC88h..?Also will there be a conflict with XP pro, I recall I had a problem last year with installing VSC88 on a laptop running XP home..Could I install HC backwards compatible if necessary???Hopefully I can use HC without a host program like Sonar..BTW Frank I 'm not slipping in slop, just thinking out loud and am curious how the rest of the world[Yammy players] are doing it...If I can only have one[or keep one]...it will be the G...Fran

Mike you got it right...but I was looking for a solution that would use an edited drum kit in place of the brush kit..I would not edit and save my sequences[over 100,000], I don't have enough years ahead of me to do that...

Fran, you should have no problems at all using Edirol's HQ Hyper Canvas with Windows Xp Pro. Good sounding music awaits you!!!

However, you do need a wrapper of some kind (DXi or VSTi). You could use V-Stack (Steinberg $70), Brainspawn ($60 - $100), Console, etc. You would need to make a decision on the wrapper first and then purchase the appropriate version of Hyper Canvas. Using a wrapper may be good thing in that it gives you the option of loading other synths (B4, etc.) at the same time.

Some of the older versions of these soft synths were written for the older versions of Windows and will not work on Windows Xp. Hyper Canvas will work with older versions of Windows as well as Windows Xp.

Hyper Canvas responds very well to VanBasco or Windows Media player. This includes program and control changes.

Fran the world is your crucible in which to mix the chemicals of your choice.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 09-01-2003).]

Thanks Frank, I'll keep you abreast as to how I make out..I am sure I will have a couple more questions for you..Fran

Fran, as I pointed out, you could always download the Demo of the Hyper Canvas and the appropriate wrapper and test it before you spend your money. I have heard there were some bugs in the demo version of the Hyper Canvas. I didn't find any when I tested it. There are updates available for the version you purchase.

Fran,
you don't have to ask "Why do I need a Tyros?"
Just find one, start to play it, go through all the styles, try all the sounds and then give yourself an answer.
If you think that you don't need one, then it's fine, but the answer has nothing to do with technical specs, IMO.
Andrea

Regarding the sub outs:
I set up a friends Tyros(which I may end up with anyway...against my better judgement)to use the sub outs as a separate mix for the bass and drums. He likes to send bass to one channel of his mixer, and drums to another. Sounds like aux outs to me.
Mike,
Is there something about this configuration that baffles you? They work like the additional outputs on everything else. You can assign any thing to them for a more specific mix. That's the way I would expect them to work.
Fran,
You'll like:
1)hard drive
2)large screen
3)drum remix
4)key feel(better than some, worse than some)
5)weight
6)styles
7)drums
8)multipads
9)music database
10)vocal processor

You'l be disapointed with:

1)grand piano sound(subjective I know, but give I the edge to Roland)
2)61 keys
3)smf drum kits, and general playback. Tweaking is mandatory here.
4)auto vibrato in sweet voices(all the new ones have this)
5)vocal samples...no usable scats
6)polyphony is not allocated as well as Roland. The G has less dropouts.
7)too wide for 61 keys. Wasted space
8)Silver...yuk.
9)short keythrow. They bottom out faster than other brands
10)Forget this list .... you'll like it.

As you said, it's subjective, but I think the Tyros has the best grand piano I've heard in any electronic keyboard, synths included. We "a-b'd" it against everything else in the store and the piano sound was amazing to me.
DonM

OMG!!!!....... ...did I miss something or did the Tyros grow two ears?

DNJ, DonM & Dave, if you keep this up Fran is going to fall for this!!!

Just got a Tyros and had a EM2000 which is almost a G1000, and a SD-1.

It's really hard to determine which is better but my first reactions where

1 The SD-1's vocal harmonizer sounds much more realistic right out of the box. but the Tyros seems more programmable so maybe it can worked on to give it a more natural type sound, it kind of reminds me of the first vocalizers which sounded chip munkish

2 no XLR input for mic but that's not a really big issue. But it does have a input knob for the mic on the front of the keyboard which is a great idea, especailly for those quick adjustments

3 The piano sound is great, but so is the SD-1, and so is the Roland. They also are a bit diffierent, seems that the Tyros has the hi-fidelty type sound, the SD-1 is a little more analogish warm, and the roland is in the middle

4 Styles, the Tyros has some great style but also have alot that remind me of a bad karoke night. The SD-1 styles are more of the same quality, not as big of a jump from bad to great, they are mostly moderate to really good. The Roland styles where like the Tyros but only reaching the really good status, never hitting great.

5 The Tyros does have alot of PC type operation which is alot easier to understand than the SD-1 and a hell of alot easier to get around than the Roland.

In conclusion, as I play the Tyros I go from, wow this thing cost alot of money and is ok, to this thing sounds great, I can't wait to play more.

Roland still is the king of MIDI file Playback

Yamaha I think is the closest to sounding like a Roland playback

The SD-1 has a different type of playback sound which at times is a little refreshing, kind of a step away from the super polished roland/yamaha type sounds, more "dirty" "fat" "warm"

Once again these are the ramblings of a guy who thinks he knows too much

[This message has been edited by frankieve (edited 09-02-2003).]

I agree with Don Mason about the piano sounds. I a-b'd a dozen manufacturer's boards at Washington Music in Rockville, MD and the PSR-2100 and Tyros were definintely superior IMO to any other manufacturer's piano sounds--even when the others were tuned. Right out of the box, the Yammies still have the edge--but what the hell do I know?

Cheers,

Gary

Unless I mis-understand what you are trying to say, you most certainly CAN map registrations and styles to the hard disk. As a matter of fact, you can map the style category buttons to ANY directory or subdirectory on the hard disk. I created directories on my hard disk with style files from other KB manufacturers and map them to the keys for the preset styles of the Tyros. I can access those custom style files in TWO KEYPRESSES!!!

Al

Dave, yes you can route "individual" parts through the Sub Outs but can you run the "whole" Mix through them? Like you can with the Aux Outs on the PSR 2000/2100. The 'whole' enchilada?? Now you're making me hungry... Individual parts and the whole ball of wax are two different things. That reminds me, I've got to ream out my ears too. PS: The Aux Sends cannot be used for that purpose either. Having traditional Aux Outputs are a Godsend IMO for their ability for Monitoring purposes. Having Near Fields along with the internals and besides that you still would have the Mains you could use; makes Monitoring, Mixing, and the eventual Mastering of your work easier and more precise IMO. But in order to do that you need the 'whole' enchilada in the Mix. Man, I'm glad lunch time is just around to corner.

Best regards,
Mike

Fran and all: Sorry for the delay. Labor Day gigs have kept me from responding sooner. As I pretty much exclusively utilize the Tyros for live performance, and in 'auto accompaniment' mode, rarely utilizing SMFs in my act, I can't comment on the Tyros' SMF features, but here's my list 10 best/worst things re: Tyros:

Best Things:

1) Responsive synth action keyboard feel & solid construction. . . a dramatic improvement over the PSR2100.

2) Very 'user friendly' button & OS navigation system. 'Direct Access' button feature very handy. Easy to read (much larger fonts than PSR2100) color LCD screen, large navigation buttons (back lite changing color (green/orange) make them easy to locate & select on the fly. Tyros buttons not included on the 2100 : dedicated intro/endings buttons (6), dedicated mic volume level knob directly above master volume knob.

3) Broad palette of outstanding & most importantly, 'very useable' acoustic sounds (voices) and styles.

4) Desktop computer (Windows OS) access to Tyros.provides quick convenient Tyros-computer data transfer (USB), organization, & routine backup of Tyros hard drive data. In addition, the Tyros' hard drive can be viewed on your Windows PC as just another external USB hard drive device, making transfer of data between your computer & the Tyros, a simple drag & drop operation. This isn't possible on the PSR2100.

5) Tyros 'Voice Editor' windows utility program: This feature allows you to easily edit any of the Tyros voices via your computer and then send these custom voices to the Tyros & saved in a dedicated non volatile location on the Tyros called: 'Custom Voices' button bank to be easily called up and used in the same way a preset sound is. There is a maximum capacity of 128 custom voices to expand the Tyros sounds (voices) even futher. The PSR2100 does not support this.

6) Lightweight transport ease. This is definitely the lightest 'top of the line' model arranger keyboard available.


7) Hard drive. It accepts most any generic off the shelf laptop hard drive and installation is a snap. This is an important advantage to me as the PSR2100 doesn't support a hard drive.


8) Out of the box playing ease. I was able to feel comfortable taking my PSR2000 & Tyros on the job within 2-3 days as navigation was intuitive as the button layout seemed to be in the right places from the start. The larger lighted buttons and larger color screen fonts on the Tyros makes it 'that much' easier playing on the fly.

9) Fill to Self: I find the Yamaha 'fill self' feature an arranger keyboard 'MUST'. In addition, having the ability to trigger it via footpedal controler is equally essential (to me). The PSR2100 supports 2 ext foot pedals while the Tyros supports 3. As I require 3 dedicated footpedals (left to right: fill self, vocal harmonizer on/off, sustain), you can clearly see why I prefer playing the Tyros.

10) Impressive (decent) sounding & easy to use vocal harmonizer. For studio recording I think a dedicated standalone vocal harmonizer would be in order, but for live performance, I think the Tyros harmonizer is very acceptable, and even better sounding than the 2000 in that the backup individual voices sound more distinct & clear.

Worst things:

1) Keyboard body & frame made entirely of plastic (no metal).

2) Floppy disk tray a waste of space and if eliminated would have allowed for a shorter keyboard.

3) Flimily designed music rack with awkward attachment. I don't use it at all.

4) Music Finder: Unfullfilled potential. The Tyros/PSR2100 music finder is a terrific feature which I use 'all the time', but it could be greatly enhanced 10 fold (and very easily) if Yamaha added storing & calling up a 'reg memory bank' file from within 'Music Finder' as well. In addition, Music Finder currently cannot access files on the Tyros hard drive. Both of these issues could be easily addressed via OS update.

5) Continuously repeating 'fill to self' absent via foot pedal. This is an obvious bug on the Tyros alone, as the PSR2000/2100 & 9000pro support it.

6) No built in speakers: This was an intial #1 concern for me, but I no longer miss this on the Tyros. Transport of the Tyros sattelites & sub woofer is actually easier (to me) than transporting a single 50 lb keyboard, and the Tyros speakers sound a lot better than any built in Yamaha speakers as well, though I'm currently utilizing a single (modified) Motion Sound KP-100S (all in one stereo unit) in place of the Tyros speakers and find them terriffic for small-medium venues.

7) Shorter keyboard: The Tyros could have been easily designed to be a bit shorter in length if Yamaha would have eliminated the useless floppy disk tray and moved the mod wheels to above the keyboard instead of to the side (left).

8) USB flakiness: I've experienced some flaky USB connectivity though the latest Tyros OS and the addition of its new 'mass storage' feature has reduced this significantly.

9) Cannot play left hand bass lines, while triggering chords with right hand (right voice)

10) No onboard sampler support to add totally new sounds.

In closing, I can only tell you that I really LOVE the Tyros and find it more than satisfies both my live performance and personal music making satisfaction. The key to the best keyboard imho is finding one with not only the most realistic & satisfying sounds and styles, but one that doesn't 'get in the way' of allowing you to easily & intuitively 'make music'. The Tyros best fits the bill for me in this regard.

- Scott

Hi Fran,
just wondering why you're comparing some of the functions on a Discover 5 to an arranger like the Tyros. If you're mainly using midifiles , aren't you possibly better off with the discover 5. I heard some mp3's demo's of it's voice processor a while back, and they sounded quite amazing, especially the one where the fellow spoke into the mike, and the end result sounded as if he had sung it . I don't actually sing, so I really wouldn't know a good voice processor from a bad one, but it sounded good to me.

Are you actually thinking of getting Tyros, because you're tired of waiting around , hoping Roland will bring out a new arranger, or do you feel it's time for a change ( hee hee) I used ask myself these questions, every time I rushed out and bought the latest new beaut, arranger or synth that had just hit the market. Wondered why I did it a few months down the track when I eventually sold it after realizing I was happier with the brand I already had ( in my case it was the kn's).

best wishes
Rikki

Mike,
You certainly can run "the whole enchilada" to the sub outs/main outs/or any variation in between.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Thanks for clearing that up Terry. Now are those Sub outs Fixed or run off the Master Volume? Fixed level provides subtle audio nuances that can be adjusted in conjunction with Main outs and even internal speakers-(oops, Tyros CON , by the Master Volume thus providing optimal Monitoring conditions IMO when Montoring and Mixing. Any way, "Fran, that makes 10 PROS and only 8 CONS. One more reason to get the Tyros.

Best regards,
Mike

BTW, I had Mexican food for lunch today.

Best regards,
Mike

Rikki, the Tyros has some of the features that are found on the DisCover 5, namely the 4 markers that can be assigned to a sequence[ allowing you to go back to pre determined part of the sequence], this capability along with arranger functions caused my interest,,When Roland releases a new board with the DisCover features and an arranger, I will most likely give it a try..Over the last 20 years I have and still do prefer Roland products, not that I have not owned and appreciated others..If something is good , I will always give it credit[I have owned just about every manufactured keyboard], even when it was a vocation, secretly it was always my hobby..So when I go on a search and buy spree...it's for fun..

The sub outs are NOT affected by the master volume knob. Anything routed to these jacks will goit's own way to a mixer. You could re-route it back INTO the Tyros using the loop in. That's a cool way to get better mixing options and still have a one shot volume knob.

It sounds like you're almost convinced about getting a Tyros Dave. I almost get the feeling you are defending the Tyros; almost like you already own one and are truly in love with it and want the world to know.

And that's fine with me. It really is an awesome sounding Arranger. Lots of features, lots of Polyphony, (can't be expanded though ), easily transportable - "if you don't lug around those add-ons ); but all in all it is a great Board. PS: I think it's worth getting just for those great Drum Kits and 128 notes of Polyphony if nothing else. But there IS plenty else too.

Best regards,
Mike

The Tyros sells for RM12,800 here = USD3,368!
sigh...

I'm not in love with anything at the moment, Mike. The deal here is this:

I guy I know just bought the Ty and I set it up for him. He's not a real experimenter and he's having trouble with a few anomolies that are Yamaha specific. I think I can rework it to be just fine, but he's frustrated at this juncture. He proposed a trade with my PA80(he really needs the aux outs) so I entertained the thought. I certainly wouldn't use it at work, because ...... you guessed it - NO SPEAKERS, but financially speaking - I'd be foolish to pass on the deal. I can (and probably WILL) sell it in a heartbeat when I'm through with it.

If this deal happens, I'd probably have to force myself to accept a more sequence-dominant envirnment till I get another board that I can use. Big parties are no problem, Fridays are on a grand piano, so the trouble days will be the weekday barrooms and small parties that I play.

Just to clarify.... I still have the same opinion of the Tyros that I always have. It's great for some, but not for me. Don't get excited about that 128 note polyphony either.... the 62 notes in the PA80 outperform it under heavy sustain useage. The drums are what I miss about Yamaha keyboards, but not the sounds ... it's the simplicity of the styles that I like. The Ty has better drum sounds than any other Yamaha to date, but they still have a weird way of rewriting the GM STANDARD to their own design. What IS that drum that sounds like a barking dog anyway ???????

Uncle Dave,

Just bought the Tyros and I agree with the style simplicity. Don't know about the polyphony issue yet, haven't come across a problem ( I only play with 2 fingers at a time )

So far midi files have played back pretty straight forward, nice drums, overall it doesn't seem to have the impact of a Korg or Ketron. But very well polished sounding.

I would have to agree with you on the way Korg uses their Polyphony, I never had an issue with note drop outs with my Korgs. Even now my SD-1 will drop put on certain styles, and it seems to be the bass note so its even more noticeable.

Yup. I hear ya Frankie !

Uncle Dave,

Are you listening to some latin styles from Yamaha in which they included a barking dog sound? LOL

In one of my older yamaha keyboards, a perfomer in which I played for live, insisted that I edit out all barking dogs and strange pan crackling sounds from the styles before any live performances.

Hi Fran,
if it's a hobby, we do have to try everything don't we (haahaa). I'm going through a selling phase at the moment. My 9000 pro, just went, and I'm waiting round to see what the new korg is all about. The low polyphony doesn't worry me greatly , as I don't really remember ever having problems on that count with the i2 I had a few years back. I quite like the korg operating system, ( unless they've changed it drastically since then). It may be cheerio, to my VA7 if I like the korg ( and can afford to buy one, that is).

best wishes
rikki

A couple of years back when I was transposing the key signatures in Cakewalk, I would get the barking dog on most of the tunes I would transpose. Not necessarily a Latin tune.

One of my Austrailian buddy musicians told me "do not transpose the drum track." That did the trick.

When you transpose the drum track in Cakewalk home studio 7, it does the doggie thing.

I'm a little surprised that no one even mention's using the multipads within a style . I think changing the multipads are a blast .
I also like Yamaha's instrument selections within the one touch play mode . But! change the multipads for fun .

Dano

Dan, you are right: the multipads are a real fun; they work like the Ketron sampled grooves...only much better, because the sounds is SO clean. The only thing that bothers me is that they continue to play even when you press the break fill button.