pro/con Opinions appreciated..


Thanx

Is this going to be a childish exchange of words on this post or are you going to be serious??

Donny,

Many things... but what comes to mind first is 76 keys and great sounding live drums. Also, re-drum - being able to play those live drums replacing the drums in a midi... very cool feature. Not sure if Midjay has that, but I think so.

Killer saxaphones, average/good guitars and organs, but much improved with AJs EXP upgrade, which also has a dynamite stereo grand - fantastic!

Relating to another subject discussed recently, when I'm performing with the SD1, it sounds like a very good "live band". With the PSR3000, like a very good "finished CD". My point being, when you have that laptop front and center for all to see, plus a polished CD sound, yea, more than a few folks could be thinking DJ, canned music, not live.

Your setup (yours, Dave's, and Gary's) is a very slick setup, IMO. But it does "broadcast" the laptop. I've been using a laptop for all of 2 weeks now - front and center, but somewhat concealed. From the audience POV, it looks like a music rack.

Glenn

Glenn.....& Im being serious Fran ........

I Have used an SD-1 when they first appeared on the scene.....I was very impressed with its sounds & styles for sure geting that kick butt "LIVE" groove is awesome......keyfel I remember is like night & day vs the Yammys Ive used also....there was some very kool features also that I loved ....eg: drum lock, bass lock, etc that would let you hold back a certain drum or bass styles while you changed variations upor down which is very useful in a live situation.....it has a sleeker footprint also which I like for a 76 KEY KB also...& I also like ALL THE BUTTONS too vs touch screens, wheels etc etc ......If I remember smf playback was excellent too using Ketron sounds.......I'm gonna make a decision very soon betweeen the Midjayw/controller vs an SD-1 we'll see whats right for me that is the key thing!....
but I appreciate all the opinions here on the SZ ..

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-19-2005).]

SD1 just simply fits my need, and my ears. It is best for what I do which is arranger playing. I've been plying one since it first came out, been trying to replace it with something new, bought TYROS with the intention to replace it, still have it, but never taken it out to gig. SD1 is kind of like "Security blanket" for me when I play.

There seems to be a real cult following with the SD1 which I like to hear.....many people swear by it and that shows me a deep alliance toward the SD-1 so something must be right
man I hate decisons?

Shade of Pale, you aren't THAT far from me here in the Shreveport area. We'll have to get together some time.
I like the SD1 a lot. I have been considering going to the Midjay and controller also, but can't make up my mind. Maybe Ketron will bring out an SD2 soon?
DonM

Don, I read in the Bose PA post that you and HankB might come up to Dallas to check it out, please let me know when, we can arrange to meet, i'll email you my cell later. Hope I can get you some Beers!!!!!!!!

We'll do that for sure! Maybe we'll bring SemiLive with us. He can DRINK some beer.
DonM

Your setup (yours, Dave's, and Gary's) is a very slick setup, IMO. But it does "broadcast" the laptop. I've been using a laptop for all of 2 weeks now - front and center, but somewhat concealed. From the audience POV, it looks like a music rack.

Glenn, I working on a new concept that may blow away all of the misconceptions the laptop creates, plus solve a host of problems with the keyboard's lousy LCD display.

If you recall, I've been trying to located a sunlight viewable LCD display that is compatible with the PSR-3000's video output. Just a few days ago, I stumbled across a website that had something along these lines, and it was available in several screen sizes. I have a few other projects that must be completed first, but I hope to work in this one in the next few months, possibly during January or Feburary if the schedle ever slows down. I'll post my progress at that time.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

FUNNY
Hope you find enough 'sun' to work with that time of year.

Scott

I played the SD1 over several long audition sessions, and on separate occasions. Though I appreciated the nice 76 key feel, it's compact dimensions, it's live drum style sync feature, and some nice impressive sounding instrument voices, it overall left me unimpressed, namely because I felt the the bass & rhythm section bass heavy & muddy (unfocused?) sounding, and it lacking in enough swinging jazz styles, with many sounding overly busy to my ears. Navigation with all the identical buttons in straight rows drove me wild too. Even after attempted tweaking . I find the Yamaha OS navigation & Korg PA1XPro sounds & styles more open & transparent (life-like & natural). The BIG thing that turned me away from Ketron (at that time) was Ketron horrible breakdown & repair record. As a PRO musician, I can't afford having the keyboard in the shop all the time. When I auditioned the SD1 & XD9 at my local Ketron dealer, I not only witnessed an SD1 being brought in for repair for the 2nd time in a month, but the XD9 I was auditioning kept locking up when simply selecting another bank/style. I'm waiting for SD2 before giving Ketron another look. In the meantime, the ONLY Ketron dealer I know of within 300 miles of me advised me they no longer carry Ketron because of all the keyboard repair problems they had. Donny, if you switch to Ketron, be prepared for a STEEP and LONG learning curve too. The beauty with the Yamaha Tyros is you can just sit down and start MAKING 'Terrific sounding' MUSIC from the get go, and with Tyros2, people can STOP COMPLAINING that the keys feel cheesy and toy-like any more. Only 61 keys, so what?! It's an auto-accomp arranger for god's sake, and remember, it was you that always made it a POINT that the keyboard's easily transportable size & weight is an all important priority to you because you "gig everyday". That said, it seems to me that your only truly lightweight options now are the: Midjay, SD1, or Tyros2. G70 weighs nearly 50 lbs, and the PA1Xpro is a close 2nd.

Ok, if I haven't said enough already, remember that highly respected SZ musician members, Roel & Dreamer, BOTH owned the SD1, and then after an extended honeymoon period enjoying it, like you with your PSR3000, chose to 'DUMP' (using your words their SD1's, in exchange for the Tyros, and are now upgrading to Tyros2 . . .

as the world turns.

Scott

Gary, is this what you found?
http://www.vartechsystems.com/products/crystalvue/default.asp

Qoute

"That said, it seems to me that your only truly lightweight options now are the: Midjay, SD1, or Tyros2. G70 weighs nearly 50 lbs, and the PA1Xpro is a close 2nd."

I think the Genesys XP module is very viable option, it sounds terrific and is a big improvement over the original Genesys which is no slouch

Jerry

I like a lot the SD1( I had 2, and the X1HD), great sounds, great styles, unique features.....cames fully loaded (except for the Video interface), but with a Hard disk, vocalist, etc...
Cons....Problems with the Screen....Polyphony alocation when playing in real time (reason I went to another brand)....Other wise, I will look into it when the new model comes next year...

------------------
mdorantes

Scott,

That is some tirade concerning the Ketron products. I'm not going to rehash the reliability question. Lots of folks use Ketrons and have no problems.

I had a x1 before meeting you and using your Tyros at the SynthJam. I decided it was time for a change and sold the x1 and got my own Tyros. The Tyros isn't really any better it is just different. There are many many things the Ketron did much better than the Tyros. There are many many things the Tyros does better.

What I miss most are the saxes and trumpets that I had on my X1. I also miss having 24 presets available at any one time. I get a lousy 8 on the Tyros. Freezing parts of a style was also a very valuable tool. You could get the good walking bass and drums from variation 3 or 4 while getting the simple backing from variation 1.

I'm detecting that Donny is getting ready for a change. Don M already changed. I'm starting to get the urge again. I'm thinking possibly Midjay with a Tyros for the controller.

Anybody want to swap a Tyros for a Sd-1? I might be interested.

Tom

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scottyee:
[B]I and it lacking in enough swinging jazz styles,
Scott, I do agree with the statement above, as much as I'm so used to SD1, Tyros to me has great Jazz, swing, and Jazz Ballad, as for sound, I love Rhode sounds from Tyros. But, as it has been mentioned, it's more like which one each of us feel more comfortable with......there's couple of things on SD1 that I need to have. I don't dislike Tyros, actually I want to like it more because of third party support and reliability, and i can really see me using Tyros for Cocktail lounge, or Country type, and in all fairness, I 've never given enough time with it. Each of us play whatever fits us the most, and that's a good thing.

tye

Tom, trust me. I wasn't trying to be negative about Ketron products. I went in with an open mind, even spending several days returning to the store to play and audition both SD1 & XD9. I can't speak for anyone else. I'm only able to report the experience I had playing it and nothing more. Whether this was merely isolated bad luck I don't know, but don't you think it strangely coincidental, when I now recently call my local Ketron music dealer a year or so later, to inquire about the Midjay, to have him tell me that they have since discontinued carrying Ketron products altogether, because of all the repair problems?



X1 Rock Sax Demo

SD1 SuperSax Demo

SD1 SoulSax

Tom, I agree that Tyros1 is weak in the 'solo' sax dept, but think Yamaha well made up for that deficiency with Tyros2:

Tyros2 SuperArt Sax

Tyros2 Modern Big Band

Tyros2 Big Band

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 10-19-2005).]

Scott,

I know two used car dealers. One doesn't like to stock and sell GM products because he claims they are unreliable. He likes to sell Chrysler products. Another dealer I know likes to sell GM products and claims Chrysler products are high maintainence. Just because that was the reason stated to you doesn't make it true. Maybe they didn't sell well and he decided to allocate his cash or floor plan to other products. Now that he doesn't sell them anymore he is not going to tell you they are great only to see you go somewhere else and buy there. If he can demean a product that he doesn't sell that will make what he does sell only look better.

I would ask George Kaye. He sells them all and I believe he is an honest man.

I also wouldn't get too excited about a mp3 demo listened to on your computer. The real proof is in the live performance with your own ears.

If I remember correctly the first versions of Tyros had some operating bugs. Also wasn't your USB port defective on yours and didn't Yamaha try to deny that the problem existed? Now the Roland G-70 needed an OS upgrade almost immediately after it was released. Neither of these examples prove all Yamahas or all Rolands are unreliable.

You are looking through the eyes of love at your Tyros my friend.

Tom

Tom great spot on assessment ......
I dont listen to anyone when I make my final choice although I do take into consideration everyones opinons right or wrong....No one plays & performs excactly like me, no one hears excactly what I hear, no one navagates a kb on stage excactly like me, I have to be happy, I have to enjoy playing it & I have to pay for it, I have to make a living with it.
The "MY Kb is Better then YOUR Kb" doesnt effect me in the end......been in this game Too long
Tom I've always sensed that you werent that happy with the Tyros after you sold your X1 & in my opinion go for the SD-1 or what ever makes you musicaly happy my friend....
Life is too short to Dilly Dalley

Good Luck To You

Donny,

It's ok. I'm as happy as I can get. I just have to go the U.D. route on this one. I want it all! If I go Ketron I'd miss all the good stuff (of which there is much) on the Tyros. That's why I'm thinking Tyros + MidJay. When Yamaha hires Uncle Dave to design the keyboard in conjunction with Scott Yee we will then have it all.

I think your PSR3000 works just fine for you. Your customers likely won't notice if you change. You are like the rest of us, a little bored with the status quo and ready for a change. We all know the grass is always greener ........

Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom Cavanaugh (edited 10-20-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tom Cavanaugh:
Donny,I think your PSR3000 works just fine for you. Your customers likely won't notice if you change. You are like the rest of us, a little bored with the status quo and ready for a change.

Tom the 3k has done me right for sure its an excellent KB....but, its shortfalls and work arounds are starting to get to me on stage ....if smething else can do it better then I'll go with it as I have done for the last 35+ years..... as it stands at this time the Tyros 2 is Last on my list to try behind the Midjay, Sd-1, Pax, G70...
if I ever get that far I have a simple phylosophy......if it works for me I go with it........if not I dump it good luck to you & everyone else with their choices, just make sure its what you really need and want for your needs!

Tom - You were spot on when you said that an SD-1 is not better than a Tyros or vice versa they are just different.

I have said this before but I very nearly got rid of my Tyros when I first got it because it didn't do what my XD3 did. I missed the "live" sounds and some of the instrument voicings (guitars - Sampled organs - trumpets and sax) that I didn't appreciate at first what I had gained in the Tyros.

I watch with interest the "holy war" of "my keyboard is better than yours". This is ok if it includes the "for my purposes" qualifier but I have to chuckle when I see certain people defend a make or, a model of a keyboard even seen yet or they don't use it in the same way.

I still have both a Ketron and Yamaha arranger and there are things I love and hate about them both - I would dearly love to get something that does (most) of what they both do and lately the functionality of the top models do seem to be converging.

So - keep it up guys - I want to see what people love or hate about their equipment in a constructive way. I am trying to find an updated G70 to try and will be over the moon if it does what it needs to for me.

Incidently - I have seen the midjay and it is a super unit but if you are mainly an arranger player you are better off with an XD or older X module as the arranger functions on the midijay are limited. If however, you use everything in the musical arsenal then it simply can't be beat for the price (in my opinion - lol.

For smaller gigs I use the XD3 module with a lightweight 61 note Sylogic controller plus the logitech 2200 - The whole setup almost fits into my pockets - well, not quite but if you are looking for a really minimal lightweight setup it takes some beating.

Just my twopence worth...

Keith

Keith,

I really don't use midi files and all the rest of that stuff that the MidJay does. I don't fault those that do but I don't feel using that stuff is playing. I know I'm going to incure some rath but to me singing to a midi file is the same as the 'K' word. I also know that if a customer wants to hear "Who Let the Dogs Out" they aren't going to hear me perform it because I can't. For those of you who have to be all things to all people I can see it. If I did wedding receptions I certainly would use all the tools available. I don't do that stuff. I just play for people that want to hear what I do. Whenever I read about dual SMF playback and search for the next tune while the first one is playing and MP3 playback I just tune out because I have no interest in those things. I'm sure I could get more jobs if I used all the available tools but I don't have the desire to perform in that manner.

What I'm getting to is that the Xd3 might be a lower cost option to use with my Tyros. I don't really need the features the MidJay has that would also allow me to be a DJ.

Thanks for giving me something to think about.

Tom

Tom .....your thoughts are valid, although just the fact of Arranger KB playing in itself is just another type of "faking it" so to speak.....vs just purly playing a Solo Acoustic instrument ...but there are two very different things to remember, AMATURE vs a PROFESSIONAL making a living.....playing for enjoyment or playing to earn........I do all the things you "tune out" on stage because I need to "GIT ER DUN" on stage for my audiences & Im proud of it! as you witnesed your elf when we met.....although when Im home by myself I rarley dont do anything for my musical own enjoyment but play the arranger keyboard which I love to do...
times have changed my friend, I miss the old days Sniff Sniff



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-21-2005).]

Donny,

Yeah I know but there is a difference playing with an arranger vs a midi file. When I'm playing with the arranger I'm in control. I control how long the song goes, how many verses are played. I can change keys if I so desire. If no one is dancing to that style I can gracefully end it early. If the floor is packed extend it or add a second song in the same style. No one knows this better than you do. I've seen you do it.

I totally agree with you though. If I did this for my living I'd be right there using all the tools neccessary to make it happen.

Tom

Tom......
I hear ya buddy....I feel your pain too
Even though I do it all on stage ....I try to tile the live arranger playing percentages in my favor as much as possible vs the other means I use for many of the reasons you mentioned in your reply....hang in there we're all in this "Thing of Ours" together !!

I echo Tom's sentiments. It's the guys that can 'make a living' really playing the keyboard (= musicianship + entertainer) that "I" respect the most. - Scott

We only have two hands [and two feet]...What is the difference if we use the keyboard in arranger mode..we still use two hands...and work just as hard as a piano player...Likewise , if we play both hands over top of a SMF...same thing..we are still playing[actually not much different than playing in the band,,,except less mistakes..].

Let me add one more[since I do this with the band], If we play [both hands] along with an MP3[I make my own MP3's]...Still play just as hard as a piano player, but we sound better..

As I have said before, if you don't use the benefits of all the media...someone else will, and they will have your job..

This faking syndrome, is blown out of proportion...If you entertain, what 's the difference how you do it..As long as you are happy, and your customers and audience enjoy what you do...

Tom, I forgot to mention, even your Tyros will allow you to set markers with in a sequence allowing you to go back to the bridge, another chorus, or a quick ending..Heck you can even change the key for the second verse...How is this different than working with a good band..."Hey Tom let's take it from the top and modulate at the bridge and close it out"..the best part, I don't have to communicate with 4 other guys, I am already on the same page..

Tom brings up a good point,which is important to the kind of job I do.

Using sequences MP3's...whatever, would not work for me, because I'm constantly looking at the audience for feedback. I like to do medleys on the fly. Sometimes, when I'm "pacing" the room, I plan the next tune not as a tune, but as a style which fits. After choosing the style, I choose an appropriate tune based on the age of the listeners and other factors.

This is not an elitest approach or in any way ment to knock those who use other means to reach their goals. It simply works for me doing the jobs I do.

I am not an entertainer, and sometimes take issue with those who think that only entertainers are well paid and work often.

The point is I'm doing what works for me in this geography. I can live with and justify using arranger features as an economic necessity in today's market. I'd rather work my conventional trio 5 nights a week, but that isn't going to happen. As often as I can, I add a piece or two, and that's most satisfying.

Everyone needs to carve out their nitch and make it work.

Hat's off to anyone who can do that. however you do it. After all, that's why we're all playing.


russ