I was just thinking here... People are always talking trash about arranger keyboards and how they're just toys and only for kids and not professionals... Well seriously think about this.. If someone wants to write and play jazz, classical, blues, ect, the only keyboards you can really buy for this type of music are ARRANGERS... The synth market doesn't really cater to these types of music anymore.. Today all the synths are being designed primarily for dance, hip hop, and teenie bobber music.. The Tritons, Rolands, and Yamaha synths don't seem to have the punch they used to have in sound quality. The makers don't give a damn about those of us who like to play other styles of music and need good sounds.. Anyone actually try and record a good jazz or country song on a Korg Triton? These new synths are cheesing us out on the acoustic sounds and are focusing more on the synth pads and leads. So what are we supposed to do? We shouldn't have to own both arrangers and synths to play and record such basic styles of music. This teenie bopper thing is really effecting the quality of keyboards available to us today.. I honestly think the best synth I've heard so far that can be used for other styles is the Yamaha Motif.. That keyboard at least has some of the 9000 pro voices on it. One synth I used to own came out when the teenie bopper craze was just getting out of control. This was a great synth made by Yamaha but would you believe that when I got this thing (that was advertised as a serious workstation), it was actually missing basic instruments like violins, cellos, harmonicas, and wood winds....??? This thing was crap when it came to writing music other than hip hop, dance, techno, pop, and rap. The only way to get those instruments you had to load in the GM sound set off a disk (which took up sample memory, and it all wouldn't even fit unless you had the keyboards sample memory expanded....) Is there anyone else out there using a newer synth other than AJ (who owns the Motif), that is using it for jazz and so forth?

Squeak

Squeak,
I do agree with your basic premise that workstations are pretty much geared towards the dance market. Those that use them mainly use them for that and is why they build them that way. Myself having owned both a Motif and Karma and still have a Triton Rack, that is definitely my take on them.

That being said though, if someone is a jazz pianist all the worksations could work for them, as they all have pretty good acoustic and electric pianos I think. However if they want to stray much away from those.....then I think they're going to have a hard time finding good "bread and butter" sounds on workstations.
jam on,
Terry

Trtjazz,
Thanks for the reply... I think the best workstation I've owned that worked well for what arrangers do would have to be the Roland XP-60... That was a pretty decent synth, but now they're all geared for hip hop and so forth..

Squeak

I think if you can afford both that'll be awesome. I have a KN6000 know..thinking of buying a Triton Studio, so got both arranger and the "pro" keyboard (hey..the guy at the store said it not me...he.he...).

Arrangers are great...I do think sometimes the sounds are a little bit to "clean" and tend to lose that "warm" and "full" feeling when you play, say for example Strings or pads....

I like BOTH....(if i got the money?? I'll get the 7000, Tyros and Triton at the same time...but then, who wouldn't?)

KN_FAN,

I totally agree.. Any musician could benefit from owning both... Before I got married and had A LOT more money that's what I did.. I had both arrangers and synths.. At one time I had the Roland XP-60, Yamaha EX-7, Yamaha PSR-540, and the original DJX... I had a blast with all those boards.. Then I got married, had a child, and everything since then has pretty much been a blur...

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 10-31-2002).]

Ok, I play in various churches for various christian meetings, retreates and conferences. As you all may know the christian collection of songs is vast. It is huge and basically the songs are from different styles and ethnic backgrounds. Furthermore, the songs are always performed differently. Sometimes not the whole song is sung and sometimes the chorus is repeated twice. There are different modes and different styles a song can be played with. My point is it is IMPOSSIBLE ...... I MEAN IMPOSSIBLE to ALWAYS use MIDI or prepared SONG. You have to play adhoc and with improvization ALL THE TIME.

So, as a SOLO musician (sometimes I am joined by other musicians but most of the time I am solo), I have two choices:

1) SOLO piano

2) Styles

Solo piano is nice and I play the piano very well. But many times, the STYLES add the needed backing to emulate a band of musicians.

In conclusion, Styles is not simply a taste but a necessity.

However, when it comes to recording a song...

Give me any song recorded by styles and I can take the same song and manually create a better one from scratch. So I am not using STYLES to short-cut CREATIVITY and honest work. But I use styles to SHORT CUT redundant routine easy work which I could have done myself and get better results if I wanted. So think of Styles as a TOOL. A dynamic musician CAN use all the tools and appreciate all the good tools.

For those musicians who get angry that a person with styles can generate EQUIVALENT or BETTER recording or performance, HOW COME YOU CANNOT generate a better MIDI from scratch? WHY? The problem is not with these people, the problem is WITH YOU who cannot generate BETTER results than the styles. I CAN. That's the reason if I have the time, I end up editing the tracks that were created by styles or even replace them from scratch.

Let me even explain this further. for those synths that utilize a looped sequence of events, that is also a tool to short cut redundancy and repetitive work. The synth itself is a tool.

By the way, not all style performances fool me. I can tell whether this person is good musician or not from listening to his styles.

Also Styles can be great learning tool for beginner and those who have been playing for long time alike. I do not equate how long have a player been performing with how advanced he is. Some of the performers are still playing at the same level. I submit to everyone that STYLES can be an excellent tool to advance own music. Why? because some of the styles have been written by very professional musicians. If you can learn to perform or write from these styles, you can advance your own music. If you can emulate the intro and endings of styles, this even becomes better.

sk880,
Glad to see another fellow playing Christian music. I play them every week at our small church in Concord. I use the arranger all the time with manual bass and drums. Works great even with the crowds. We played diverse styles of music, mostly contemporary Christian songs from the Hillsongs, Hosanna, etc.

What keyboard do you use ? Do you also use manual bass or ?

Hi Squeak,
You said it !!
Arranger KB are "king in my book" you can do a "ton of stuff" that you can`t do on a synth , without a computer and software, IMO !!
I tried the "Korg -Karma" put you just could not play it if your a solo player !! It had very good sounds and the appreg. was "kick`n" . But all-in all I prefer an arranger KB ,It`s all there !!!!
jedi

I have to agree Squeak, and also with your assessment that the Motif is the excception to the rule. I favor many of the bread and butter sounds on it as compared to the PSR740 and 2000 I had before it. As we always say sounds are subjective but for me:

The Motif is the winner vs my PSRs for acoustic and electric pianos ( big time on electrics ), drums ( acoustic and electronic ), guitars, basses, strings, and of course synth sounds ( again big time with the AN150 board installed ) . The PSRs were as good and in some cases better on saxes, horns, woodwinds, and organs. I prefer most of the latter sounds on the PA80 as well vs the Motif.


I tried the Triton and Karma extensively and did not like the way a lot of the acoustic sounds were set up on them vs the way they are set up on the PA80 ( same samples in many cases ). I was not overly impressed with a lot of the acoustic instruments on the Roland Fantom either.

Sounds and key feel are among the things that matter most to me on a board, and for my tastes I like the PA80 ( key feel could be better ) and the Motif for their sounds. They are great for me for live play away from home, and between the two I have more good sounds than I'll ever need when playing along with other musicians. At the home studio they work nicely as well, in tandem with my samples and software.

I've been focusing on using what I have and am no longer looking to replace anything at this point. I really like my current setup, so why search ? I still want to have a go with the XD9, but mainly because I'd like to have a backup arranger for the PA80. I could also envision a PSR2000 winding up in my hands again as the backup, but one of the key reasons I don't want another 2000 is the key feel. It just isn't comfortable at all for me.


AJ

Hi AJ,
How are you do`n ? Long time -no "talk to"
O- BTW , It`s way too early for winter ! hahaha
I`m glad to hear you are still "dig`n" the "Motif " , could another "arranger" be far behind ? Have fun ,take care !

jedi

lukitoh,

Glad to meet you as well. I play sk880ps keyboard. It is identical to WK8 with the exception that it has 88-weighted hammer action keys plus no speakers. It has a harddrive, and I added 8 megs of battery backed memory and vocal harmonizer.

When playing the Solo piano, my left hand does usually play the bass. I usually play appregos. Therefore, when I play with an arranger, I use full backing styles with multi-fingered mode since I use 4 fingers for the chord.

AJ,

As you said, Triton/Karma is not known for its acoustic voices.

I personally like XV series from Roland. I do not like the piano sound on Motif.

Hi Jedi,

Good to see you again. I was introduced to Winter this morning when I awoke to find about an inch of snow on the ground.

I've been very busy with family issues ( raising two of my grandaughters right now ) so I haven't had as much time to be online or play music as I would like, but it will all even out in the end I think. As far as another arranger, maybe just for a backup board. I'm very happy with what I have now, but I'd still like to try out the XD9.

SK,
All in the beholders ears I guess. One of the things that sold me on the Motif WAS the Piano voice. I like the XV boards a lot too, but I guess I just prefer the Motif over a wider ranger of sounds for my tastes and what I like to play. I guess it's a good thing that there are some choices though that allow for us to choose what fits us best.

Cheers,

AJ

Hi Squeak...so should I say "congratulations" for married life or "sorry"?

I personally think there is NO perfect keyboard in this world. You always wish "hmmh...Yamaha's sampling and Piano sound...but I want Korg's strings...also, brass from the Kentron.." you get my point.

So, I'm just reiterating my point, get one master (arranger or non)...and get another one from a different brand, then you'll have the best of both worlds. I think....

SK880 and Lukitoh...perhaps, you can show me links to Christian music downloads and stuff. Used to play a lot before, but vacuum for almost 5 years now starting to play again...

Talk to you guys later.
KN_Fan

Not trying to start trouble, but I wouldn't. For staple sounds I have a Roland JV1080 with 4 of the best acoustic boards they make - session, vocal, orchestra and pop.
Add that to my Korg PA80, and a Roland sound canvas and I have almost all the neccisary elements I will ever need to reproduce normal, acoustic instruments.
The kn7k si no where near the level of sounds that I would have in a studio setting....especially the drums.
The Triton is strongest in synth sounds, which I rarely need more than I have.
The only one that I can't comment on is the Tyros - because in my area .... it DOESN'T even EXIST yet. I'll give a listen when it hits NJ/PA .... till then .... it's just an ad.

I agree with UD and sk880 regarding the Roland JV/XV series. The stock sounds are good and the variety of sounds on the cards is great. I have an XV-5080 with the Asia, Vocal, Orchestral II, World, SRX-Drums, and SRX-Strings. These sounds are definitely not limited to dance and techno. If you don't want a rack mount, the XV-88, the Fantom, and RD-700 take SRX cards. Most of the old JV cards come 4-apiece in recently issued SRX cards.

I also have a Korg Karma and I am disappointed in the sounds available for that board. I haven't tried the new orchestral set of cards from Korg as I am saving my two slots for ethnic cards. I think Korg is losing ground resting on its Triton laurels.

As I have said before, I wish Roland would come out with an arranger with SRX slots and vocal harmony.

I endorse what has been said above - The Roland JV1080 plus cards gives the most realistic accoustic instruments I could find in a unit after a lot of searching and auditioning - Keith

KN_FAN,

I recommend the music of the following:

1) Rich Mullins
2) Michael Card
3) Petra
4) Steve Green
5) Matthew Ward
6) Anne Herring
7) Steve Camp
8) Twaila Paris

The reason I recommend the above musicians because in my humble opinion their music is true music that speaks from the heart. It is unsuperficial, especially, the music written in the minor scales. Some music is written for the moment and some are written for life. The words are good and the life and walk of these people reflect what they believe and what they preach. this is another important point to me.