For small bars that are reluctant to pay much at all for a performer, any idea on what to ask for? 20% of the bar tab? 25%? More? A bar owner surely should be willing to pay SOMEthing for a guarantee. Put $50 in the tip jar or $20 or SOMEthing, plus a percent of the bar receipts. Just fishing for ideas.

I have a honky tonk set list that's perfect for these country folks who never get live entertainment but bar owners are cheapskates. Actually, they really DON'T have much traffic, I understand that. But, who knows, might turn out alright, especially if they'd promote it as something special.

Bill,

There is an approach you may wish to take, one that works for many of us trying to become established at new locations.

Offer them a deal they cannot refuse. Provide them with a one-time, half-price performance, or if you must, a free, one-hour performance. This is just something to get your foot in the door--nothing more, and be sure that you make this perfectly clear. Then, if they like what you have to offer, you can work out a schedule that fits their budget and yours as well.

Good Luck,

Gary

Hi there!

I want to express two key things here:

- Music is not business
- Business is not music

What this means is that the value lies in the relationship between the performer's music and his heart. Business in musical terms is when a musician expresses himself in a way that makes his heart visible to the audience. The value of such an artist should be weighted against the best possible guess of how much money the performers performance can be converted to. If you are really whole hearted and give in overflow on stage it means your performance is rich and of high quality. Quality is not cheap. So before you try to figure out what to ask for in money, ask yourself honestly first: "How much am I prepared to give others on stage and what are the guarantees for this coming real?"

It is not your "talent" or songs that are of value, it is the reason behind it that decides the price. If you want to become rich economically on gigs you really need to give, give, give both to the music and to the audience. This means being honest against yourself and the audience, taking responsibility for your talent in public and having a humble attitude towards yourself and others. So that way you become a high quality artist that people respect and pay in return. By being a professional you know that you don't accept people giving shitty low sums and bad response, you simply choose to not put yourself in such a situation and context and when you realise you are in such a greedy place you say you are not satisfied with the offer and leave the place. This is a huge mistake that a lot of artists do. They simply sell their talent to music killers and get stuck, because they believe the only person that can set a fair price tag is everybody except yourself. Remember that it is you that set a fair price and what you want to achieve during your career. Then it's just a matter of selecting places where people pay as much as you give.

If you want to enter the really high level, you need a personal coach that shares your musical responsibility externally and his main task is to analyze how much you currently give, what you currently give and what you should change/add to fulfill the value of your price tag you've decided to put on yourself. He will also help you decide who is paying well and who is trying to steal from you. BTW, this is a cheap way of getting to the top in a fast and easy way... Giving is the key!
Best regards,
YamahaAndy

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-01-2005).]

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-01-2005).]

The thing to be careful of is not all bar patrons want live music. I had a friend that keep pitching a bar and finally wore the owner out so he got a chance to play. The patrons were mad, they couldn't play the jukebox or TV, play their favorite games, or just talk they looked at it as an intrusion and left, telling the owner "if I want entertainment I'll go look for entertainment I don't come here for that." Even though he played for free he ruined business that night.

Bar owners want you to increase business If they can make the same amount of money with or without you why would they want to pay you. What is in it for them?

Play for free if it works out and he wants you back he'll hire you.

Sorry YamahaAndy but I think perhaps you didn't quite understand the author's question
I could be totally off beam here but my reading of it is that here is a man who is merely looking to earn dollars for giving his time and talent for entertaining and there are lots of us with the same down-to-earth approach to life!
Philosophy is not always a provider of dinero
cheers

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Eddie from Rotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info



[This message has been edited by eddiefromrotherham (edited 03-01-2005).]

Cost of goods......30%
Rent................5
Utilities...........5
Maintenance.........5
Labor..............15
Management costs...10
Taxes/licences.....15
Net profit..........5
______
Total before music 90%

There are lots of different business models for bars, but this is one several of my clients use. There are several that pay 10%.
Several others charge a cover and it all goes to the entertainment.
10% of a $2000 night is $200.00.

Several of my friends do VERY WELL (like $50,000, plus) working on commission, but these folks are entertainers with a big following. One guy has been at a little hole in the wall for over 22 years..works 4 nights a week and always clears $1000.00 or more.

I have had several deals where I get a guarantee ($125), plus 5% of everything over $1000.00 a night. That generally works out to a little over $200.00 on week-ends.

The challenge is finding a place to work you enjoy that has the potential to do $2000.00 or more a night.

There's nothing more satisfying than building a following and getting paid accordingly.


Good luck,


Russ

But if you don't think you should put any energy in making the best out of yourself before you enter the stage and when you perform, then why would anybody choose to pay much for a person that wants to make it easy for him/herself? Artists may have whatever attitude they like to have, if you you have no other higher purposes on stage than to earn a few dollars, you are probably not worth anything more than just that, a few dollars. It is not the bar owners responsibility to take care of the artist's talent and goals. An artist that uses music as a tool for only making a living has set himself "a give if you want" price tag, simply because that artist is not worth antyhing more. I would say such artists have nothing to say about price especially since they cannot compete with those that give! They can try to make a business out of it, but it'll be a cheap and long road. As long as that is enough economically for the musician, it's cool, but often it's really hard. There are also persons that play for free, that is more a decision based on religious beliefs. In my opinion those that give in overflow for free are the ones that have entered the ultimate state of talent and identity. These artists usually need to make money first to be able to hit the final stage.

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-01-2005).]

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-01-2005).]

Andie, did you even read what Eddie wrote?

Thanks Chony

I rest my case!!!

------------------
Eddie from Rotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

This is not some esoteric thought exercise here - it's much simpler than that.

I provide a freelance professional service for my clients and all I have to be compensated for is my time. This is no different from hiring a lawyer or a plumber or any other service. I charge a set fee for the evening or by the hour but I never take a "percentage" of anything, which is just asking for an accounting problem.

My business is entertainment - I'm not a bar/restaurant proprietor. This is an important fundemental point - I am not investing in the business I am serving... the risk for a good turnout is entirely theirs, as is the profit or loss. I've already invested a lot in time, equipment, talent and more in my own business before I walk in the door and it is backed up by my references, my CD, and my word. I will do a great job of providing musical entertainment and being a gracious host under the supervision of the business' designated manager, but that is the end of my obligation. If you can't afford me, it is my duty to my family to find someone who can.

I know that you might be tempted to work something out with small bar owners to establish entertainment where it isn't currently, but I advise against anythihg other than a reasonably good hourly fee. There's more at stake than you realize - your professional reputation is on the line and working cheap is not the reputation you want. If you think all bar owners are cheapskates just wait until you ask for a raise. Better to have a set hourly fee in place - if it's slow you work fewer hours and when it's busy you work more but the fee doesn't change so there's nothing to debate at pay time. Any other arrangement enters you into a joint partnership with the business, and you have to decide whether you want to be an entertainer first or something else.

As for YamahaAndy's rhetoric - I play passionately and to the best of my ability everytime I play. I am a professional and my clients deserve no less than my best always. My references can attest to that - some of my clients have hired repeatedly for many years. If a business wants professional entertainment, the only question should be how much money to pay me and for how long. I become very humble and gracious when dealing with the actual bar/restaurant customers, which in turn helps with my tips and CD sales, but when dealing with the person hiring me I am utterly confident in the value of my services. I have to be.

Just be aware and assume that every word you say to a bar/restaurant owner or manager when you negotiate for your services will be repeated to every other person you'll ever try to get a job from. These guys talk. Besides, they know their business and they know when they are dealing with a pro or some hack, so have your game face and plan ready from the start.

As I see it, there are two general types of
jobs...at least in the field I work in:

1. Jobs where the music is part of the formula...the image of the place and a justification for the prices charged and a reason for people to stay longer than to just finish their food. Drawing customers is
important, but not the primary goal. In these situations, I charge a flat fee of $150.00...the top rate in this town.

2. Jobs where the music is the draw. In these cases, I charge a guarantee and an override. Usually, it is 5% of everyting over $1000.00 a night. Club owners who are not willing to pay more than a $150.00 rate usually like this set-up and the proceeds for the evening are generally $200.00, plus.
The guarantee is always a minimum of $125.00. The override is a well-earned reward for drawing power.

Taking some ownership in the results of your work is rewarding. Of course, you need to carefully evaluate all aspects of the establishment to make sure the fit is right.
I turn down sports bars and country western places immediately...nothing wrong with them, it's just that my work would not be suitable.

This is how I've done things for years, and it's worked out well for me. A lot depends on what you're hired to do. I have a regular 4 night a week job that pays $150.00, so the override is an incentive to take on work at another location. I like my regular job and wouldn't go elsewhere for the same money.

Russ

I think the financial dynamics often fluctuate from market to market. If you are in a resort town or larger city, the market conditions are certainly different for professional musicians who are working in a smaller market.

I don't think there can be a cookie-cutter approach all the time with regard to pricing. (ie: "This is what I charge, period...") I know from experience, when I was working in the larger urban market(Pittsburgh), we set our prices high...and for the most part...clubs met it or we didn't perform there. However, we only workedon weekends. Now that I'm doing more and more solo work, in a much smaller market (Dayton), it simply doesn't work that way around here.

I find that I have to work harder here than back in Pgh.

DJ's/kareoke are very popular in my area...The most popular bands around town work 3-5 times a month. Most everything else is covered by dj's and kareoke performers. Hustling, I average about 6-8 club dates per month.

Am I the most expensive performer in town...no...but am I in this to "be the highest paid" or am I in it to earn a living while taking care of my family while playing the kind of music I enjoy?

One thing I try very hard to do is only approach venues where my style will (potentially)succeed. If a club can't/won't meet my starting price...then I have to make it worth their while. My thinking is this- once they hear me...I'm in...I can think of 3 long term accounts where I did exactly that...I dropped my desired price by $25 or so...but in return asked for X number of monthly engagements. With the advance bookings, I can promote them, make sure my "crowd" knows about them, learn what the home crowd likes...and within a few months...start to see the crowds grow and grow. The owners are happy because I didn't try & gouge them for a one time bonanza and dissappear. They see me a flexible businessman who isn't afraid to share a bit of the risk in developing something mutually beneficial for both parties. When I go back for additional dates...I have always (so far, lol) gotten at least my original desired wage and usually more.

If I'd been rigid at the start, nothing would've happened.

Did I "give away" my talent? No, I offered them a good faith discount that I have more than recouped...

Am I undercutting other acts? No...Other were free to take the same approach...apparently, they chose not to.

Do the owners think less of me? Hardly...I've been told by a few of them that unlike most of the musicians who they encounter, I provide the "total package" I can play, sing, conduct the business part of it, etc...Too often they tell me other acts leave them feeling shortchanged or used.

I surely don't say this to boast, but to make a point. I think you have to hit them with a kitchen sink that they can't refuse. I try my damdest to NOT give any client a reason to not hire me again or refer me to someone. Its not always the music that makes an account work or not. Its all the little things...

How many times have you walked in to a club to set up and found the stage to still be trashed from the last band to play there? At the end of the night, we grab a bar tray, and take our glasses & trash to the bar...Sounds stupid as hell, but it makes a positive impression...

This last weekend, my band played a new club for us...This club has a reputation for hard core country and nothing else. We play a variety aimed at 40+ crowd. I talked the manager of the place to give us a Saturday night. I knocked $50 off our regular price. We played our usual 3 sets...and the place went bonkers. When the guy paid me at the end of the night, he asked us back for a date a month through the end of the year. When I asked him why we had gone over so well, he said we played great, people liked our variety, we chatted with the guests between sets, but really one comment stood out all night to him. An older gentlemen, who is known to be a real prick to musicians around the club, said to him that we were the first band in years to walk in that club dressed properly...everything else we did after that just drove home the point.

When a white shirt, non-matching ties and gray pants make that kind of impression, you have to wonder what your competition is thinking sometimes...

Bill in Dayton



[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 03-02-2005).]

Bill ... I saw the group Spyro Gyra at a jazz club just outside of Boston a couple of months ago ... The lead guy, saxaphonist Jay Beckenstein was dressed in a faded polo shirt and faded jeans ... The other players were simarly dressed ... I commented to our group that I remembered when the band dressed BETTER than the customers ...
t.

I remembered when the band dressed BETTER than the customers.

I've always held the belief that you should always be dressed better than your customers. I've never understood the mentality some performers seem to adhere to when it comes to attire, especially those that show up in ragged, dirty jeans, a torn shirt, dirty sneakers, in bad need of a shave, and hair that looks as if the last time it was washed was when the creek was high. That reminds me, I need to have my tuxes altered. Gettin' skinny is costin' me some dough!

Gary

I don't know why the scene in the country bar from the "Blues Brothers" film, came to my mind after reading some of the posts here.

I am no gigging musician, probably no musician at all, but here's my point of view, for all it's worth:

The "lower $ introductory offer" seems the most appropriate to me. Offer a package of 2 or 3 nights for a fee that will not turn potential customers (bar owners) away. But make it clear that this is a lower than usual fee, for a limited period of time, and your ultimate goal is to be a regular in the bar, getting customers happy (and drunk), for your regular fee. That way you can show you care for your own pocket as well as the bar owner's pocket, so everyone is happy.

I believe that 1 night only, may not show your potential well, I also believe that 5 nights for less $, is too much. 3 is in my opinion a good average, for you not to starve too much, and for the bar owner to weigh the impact you have to his customers (and sales).

Exception* if you are not booked for a particular night, getting lower $ might be better than no $ at all.

When the "introductory offer" has ended, and you find yourself succesful, you can approach the bartender like approaching an old customer. "I can raise your sales again, for a raised fee"

If after that, you manage to make it like the hospital business, where the patient is the doctor's customer and the doctor is the hospital's customer, the bar (hospital) will not want the doctor (you) to go to another hospital and carry the patients along, you'll have success.

good luck.

I respect the opinions here, along with the integrity, optimism and spirit of fairness they represent. And if we were talking about any other business than the F&B industry then much of what you guys say would be appropriate... but unfortunately we're not. The bar and restaurant business attracts some of the most untrustworthy people there are. I won't go into the bad experiences I've had but I find it best to keep my wages hourly and not let anyone owe me. If you can work for people that you can trust enough to work out some sort of percentage or other salary arrangement then you're lucky, but there's not an F&B person alive that could undo the mistrust I have for the lot.

I must admit Jim has a point, particularly when dealing the managers and owners of F&B business'. However, I did a free, one-hour preformance at a local American Legion one after noon 7 years ago. That resulted in a weekly gig that lasted another 6 years and paid $175 for the 4-hour weekly job. The place dumped the manager, the guy that took over was also a karaoke dude, and you can only guess what happened. Yep, he's now the manager and all of the jobs go to him and one of his friends, who also just happens to be a karaoke dude. Gotta' love it.

That's show biz folks,

Gary

Jim-

I started doing music as a full time profession about 8 years ago...

Prior to that, I spent 21 years with General Mills/Darden Restaurants as a manager for Red Lobsters in PA, MD and Ohio...

Honestly, I think you're being overly kind in your apprasial of F& B people...

Present company excluded, of course...



Given its transient nature, you are often asked to make a silk purse out of a sow's ass. As my particular company went in odd directions seeking the holy grail of F& B absolution, I found my skills less and less useful. Customer service, team building, cost controls, sanitation went out the window as we turned to trying to be all things to all people. They stoped hiring managers with solid experience and preferred degree holding morons with not a lick of experience. These bozos had no clue how to handle a pissed off guest, a pissed off line cook, work in their community etc. Typically, both their hands spent large quantities of time trying to find their own ass.

The first 17 years of my career was great...however, after the Crusades hit RL, I knew the end was near. Finally, after 1 member of my mgt. team was arrested for employee theft AND the other 2 having decided to create a lobster child of their own,(Boy were their spouses upset!!!) I decided it was time for a change.

My solo club dates are almost exclusively at animal clubs and so far, my approach has worked well.

About every other year, I get stupid and decide to try a bona fide bar...

Usually by the end of the first set, I'm swearing I'll not do this again, lol..

Bill




[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 03-03-2005).]

I guess I'm really lucky. In nearly 50 years, I've always billed the restaurants I play...the owners let me do what I wish, including setting the number of nights and hours and I've only had minor problems with mangers.

When an upscale restaurant wants to talk, I generally stop by and just see how the operation works...particularly, how the help is treated. Everyone in the business knows the good places and the ones to avoid.
If I see anything odd or if I see employees being treated unfairly, I leave and never go back.

I am under retainer at my regular job to do database management, graphics and training materials, and the fee for music is covered that way, but when I was hired 13 years ago, the owner never asked what I charged. I send my invoices to the book-keeper, and I bet Libby couldn't tell me today what I charge.

I have never had a bad experience with any of the upscale restaurants I play.

I suggested the override I talked about above, and it's worked out fine.


Russ