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#146659 - 03/02/05 01:42 PM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
captain Russ Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
As I see it, there are two general types of
jobs...at least in the field I work in:

1. Jobs where the music is part of the formula...the image of the place and a justification for the prices charged and a reason for people to stay longer than to just finish their food. Drawing customers is
important, but not the primary goal. In these situations, I charge a flat fee of $150.00...the top rate in this town.

2. Jobs where the music is the draw. In these cases, I charge a guarantee and an override. Usually, it is 5% of everyting over $1000.00 a night. Club owners who are not willing to pay more than a $150.00 rate usually like this set-up and the proceeds for the evening are generally $200.00, plus.
The guarantee is always a minimum of $125.00. The override is a well-earned reward for drawing power.

Taking some ownership in the results of your work is rewarding. Of course, you need to carefully evaluate all aspects of the establishment to make sure the fit is right.
I turn down sports bars and country western places immediately...nothing wrong with them, it's just that my work would not be suitable.

This is how I've done things for years, and it's worked out well for me. A lot depends on what you're hired to do. I have a regular 4 night a week job that pays $150.00, so the override is an incentive to take on work at another location. I like my regular job and wouldn't go elsewhere for the same money.

Russ

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#146660 - 03/02/05 04:19 PM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
Bill in Dayton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2202
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
I think the financial dynamics often fluctuate from market to market. If you are in a resort town or larger city, the market conditions are certainly different for professional musicians who are working in a smaller market.

I don't think there can be a cookie-cutter approach all the time with regard to pricing. (ie: "This is what I charge, period...") I know from experience, when I was working in the larger urban market(Pittsburgh), we set our prices high...and for the most part...clubs met it or we didn't perform there. However, we only workedon weekends. Now that I'm doing more and more solo work, in a much smaller market (Dayton), it simply doesn't work that way around here.

I find that I have to work harder here than back in Pgh.

DJ's/kareoke are very popular in my area...The most popular bands around town work 3-5 times a month. Most everything else is covered by dj's and kareoke performers. Hustling, I average about 6-8 club dates per month.

Am I the most expensive performer in town...no...but am I in this to "be the highest paid" or am I in it to earn a living while taking care of my family while playing the kind of music I enjoy?

One thing I try very hard to do is only approach venues where my style will (potentially)succeed. If a club can't/won't meet my starting price...then I have to make it worth their while. My thinking is this- once they hear me...I'm in...I can think of 3 long term accounts where I did exactly that...I dropped my desired price by $25 or so...but in return asked for X number of monthly engagements. With the advance bookings, I can promote them, make sure my "crowd" knows about them, learn what the home crowd likes...and within a few months...start to see the crowds grow and grow. The owners are happy because I didn't try & gouge them for a one time bonanza and dissappear. They see me a flexible businessman who isn't afraid to share a bit of the risk in developing something mutually beneficial for both parties. When I go back for additional dates...I have always (so far, lol) gotten at least my original desired wage and usually more.

If I'd been rigid at the start, nothing would've happened.

Did I "give away" my talent? No, I offered them a good faith discount that I have more than recouped...

Am I undercutting other acts? No...Other were free to take the same approach...apparently, they chose not to.

Do the owners think less of me? Hardly...I've been told by a few of them that unlike most of the musicians who they encounter, I provide the "total package" I can play, sing, conduct the business part of it, etc...Too often they tell me other acts leave them feeling shortchanged or used.

I surely don't say this to boast, but to make a point. I think you have to hit them with a kitchen sink that they can't refuse. I try my damdest to NOT give any client a reason to not hire me again or refer me to someone. Its not always the music that makes an account work or not. Its all the little things...

How many times have you walked in to a club to set up and found the stage to still be trashed from the last band to play there? At the end of the night, we grab a bar tray, and take our glasses & trash to the bar...Sounds stupid as hell, but it makes a positive impression...

This last weekend, my band played a new club for us...This club has a reputation for hard core country and nothing else. We play a variety aimed at 40+ crowd. I talked the manager of the place to give us a Saturday night. I knocked $50 off our regular price. We played our usual 3 sets...and the place went bonkers. When the guy paid me at the end of the night, he asked us back for a date a month through the end of the year. When I asked him why we had gone over so well, he said we played great, people liked our variety, we chatted with the guests between sets, but really one comment stood out all night to him. An older gentlemen, who is known to be a real prick to musicians around the club, said to him that we were the first band in years to walk in that club dressed properly...everything else we did after that just drove home the point.

When a white shirt, non-matching ties and gray pants make that kind of impression, you have to wonder what your competition is thinking sometimes...

Bill in Dayton



[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 03-02-2005).]
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Bill in Dayton

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#146661 - 03/02/05 05:17 PM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Bill in Dayton:

When a white shirt, non-matching ties and gray pants make that kind of impression, you have to wonder what your competition is thinking sometimes...
Bill in Dayton
[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 03-02-2005).]


Bill ... I saw the group Spyro Gyra at a jazz club just outside of Boston a couple of months ago ... The lead guy, saxaphonist Jay Beckenstein was dressed in a faded polo shirt and faded jeans ... The other players were simarly dressed ... I commented to our group that I remembered when the band dressed BETTER than the customers ...
t.
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t. cool

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#146662 - 03/02/05 05:41 PM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
I remembered when the band dressed BETTER than the customers.

I've always held the belief that you should always be dressed better than your customers. I've never understood the mentality some performers seem to adhere to when it comes to attire, especially those that show up in ragged, dirty jeans, a torn shirt, dirty sneakers, in bad need of a shave, and hair that looks as if the last time it was washed was when the creek was high. That reminds me, I need to have my tuxes altered. Gettin' skinny is costin' me some dough!

Gary
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K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#146663 - 03/03/05 07:23 AM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
I don't know why the scene in the country bar from the "Blues Brothers" film, came to my mind after reading some of the posts here.

I am no gigging musician, probably no musician at all, but here's my point of view, for all it's worth:

The "lower $ introductory offer" seems the most appropriate to me. Offer a package of 2 or 3 nights for a fee that will not turn potential customers (bar owners) away. But make it clear that this is a lower than usual fee, for a limited period of time, and your ultimate goal is to be a regular in the bar, getting customers happy (and drunk), for your regular fee. That way you can show you care for your own pocket as well as the bar owner's pocket, so everyone is happy.

I believe that 1 night only, may not show your potential well, I also believe that 5 nights for less $, is too much. 3 is in my opinion a good average, for you not to starve too much, and for the bar owner to weigh the impact you have to his customers (and sales).

Exception* if you are not booked for a particular night, getting lower $ might be better than no $ at all.

When the "introductory offer" has ended, and you find yourself succesful, you can approach the bartender like approaching an old customer. "I can raise your sales again, for a raised fee"

If after that, you manage to make it like the hospital business, where the patient is the doctor's customer and the doctor is the hospital's customer, the bar (hospital) will not want the doctor (you) to go to another hospital and carry the patients along, you'll have success.

good luck.

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#146664 - 03/03/05 09:18 AM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
The Pro Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 1087
Loc: Atlanta, Georgia
I respect the opinions here, along with the integrity, optimism and spirit of fairness they represent. And if we were talking about any other business than the F&B industry then much of what you guys say would be appropriate... but unfortunately we're not. The bar and restaurant business attracts some of the most untrustworthy people there are. I won't go into the bad experiences I've had but I find it best to keep my wages hourly and not let anyone owe me. If you can work for people that you can trust enough to work out some sort of percentage or other salary arrangement then you're lucky, but there's not an F&B person alive that could undo the mistrust I have for the lot.
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Jim Eshleman

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#146665 - 03/03/05 09:42 AM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
I must admit Jim has a point, particularly when dealing the managers and owners of F&B business'. However, I did a free, one-hour preformance at a local American Legion one after noon 7 years ago. That resulted in a weekly gig that lasted another 6 years and paid $175 for the 4-hour weekly job. The place dumped the manager, the guy that took over was also a karaoke dude, and you can only guess what happened. Yep, he's now the manager and all of the jobs go to him and one of his friends, who also just happens to be a karaoke dude. Gotta' love it.

That's show biz folks,

Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#146666 - 03/03/05 12:47 PM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
Bill in Dayton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2202
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
Jim-

I started doing music as a full time profession about 8 years ago...

Prior to that, I spent 21 years with General Mills/Darden Restaurants as a manager for Red Lobsters in PA, MD and Ohio...

Honestly, I think you're being overly kind in your apprasial of F& B people...

Present company excluded, of course...



Given its transient nature, you are often asked to make a silk purse out of a sow's ass. As my particular company went in odd directions seeking the holy grail of F& B absolution, I found my skills less and less useful. Customer service, team building, cost controls, sanitation went out the window as we turned to trying to be all things to all people. They stoped hiring managers with solid experience and preferred degree holding morons with not a lick of experience. These bozos had no clue how to handle a pissed off guest, a pissed off line cook, work in their community etc. Typically, both their hands spent large quantities of time trying to find their own ass.

The first 17 years of my career was great...however, after the Crusades hit RL, I knew the end was near. Finally, after 1 member of my mgt. team was arrested for employee theft AND the other 2 having decided to create a lobster child of their own,(Boy were their spouses upset!!!) I decided it was time for a change.

My solo club dates are almost exclusively at animal clubs and so far, my approach has worked well.

About every other year, I get stupid and decide to try a bona fide bar...

Usually by the end of the first set, I'm swearing I'll not do this again, lol..

Bill




[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 03-03-2005).]
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Bill in Dayton

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#146667 - 03/03/05 03:28 PM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
captain Russ Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
I guess I'm really lucky. In nearly 50 years, I've always billed the restaurants I play...the owners let me do what I wish, including setting the number of nights and hours and I've only had minor problems with mangers.

When an upscale restaurant wants to talk, I generally stop by and just see how the operation works...particularly, how the help is treated. Everyone in the business knows the good places and the ones to avoid.
If I see anything odd or if I see employees being treated unfairly, I leave and never go back.

I am under retainer at my regular job to do database management, graphics and training materials, and the fee for music is covered that way, but when I was hired 13 years ago, the owner never asked what I charged. I send my invoices to the book-keeper, and I bet Libby couldn't tell me today what I charge.

I have never had a bad experience with any of the upscale restaurants I play.

I suggested the override I talked about above, and it's worked out fine.


Russ

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