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#146649 - 03/01/05 10:11 AM Percentage of sales gig deals
SemiLiveMusic Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 2204
Loc: Louisiana, USA
For small bars that are reluctant to pay much at all for a performer, any idea on what to ask for? 20% of the bar tab? 25%? More? A bar owner surely should be willing to pay SOMEthing for a guarantee. Put $50 in the tip jar or $20 or SOMEthing, plus a percent of the bar receipts. Just fishing for ideas.

I have a honky tonk set list that's perfect for these country folks who never get live entertainment but bar owners are cheapskates. Actually, they really DON'T have much traffic, I understand that. But, who knows, might turn out alright, especially if they'd promote it as something special.
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Bill

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#146650 - 03/01/05 10:21 AM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Bill,

There is an approach you may wish to take, one that works for many of us trying to become established at new locations.

Offer them a deal they cannot refuse. Provide them with a one-time, half-price performance, or if you must, a free, one-hour performance. This is just something to get your foot in the door--nothing more, and be sure that you make this perfectly clear. Then, if they like what you have to offer, you can work out a schedule that fits their budget and yours as well.

Good Luck,

Gary
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PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#146651 - 03/01/05 10:39 AM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
YamahaAndy Offline
Member

Registered: 02/20/05
Posts: 88
Hi there!

I want to express two key things here:

- Music is not business
- Business is not music

What this means is that the value lies in the relationship between the performer's music and his heart. Business in musical terms is when a musician expresses himself in a way that makes his heart visible to the audience. The value of such an artist should be weighted against the best possible guess of how much money the performers performance can be converted to. If you are really whole hearted and give in overflow on stage it means your performance is rich and of high quality. Quality is not cheap. So before you try to figure out what to ask for in money, ask yourself honestly first: "How much am I prepared to give others on stage and what are the guarantees for this coming real?"

It is not your "talent" or songs that are of value, it is the reason behind it that decides the price. If you want to become rich economically on gigs you really need to give, give, give both to the music and to the audience. This means being honest against yourself and the audience, taking responsibility for your talent in public and having a humble attitude towards yourself and others. So that way you become a high quality artist that people respect and pay in return. By being a professional you know that you don't accept people giving shitty low sums and bad response, you simply choose to not put yourself in such a situation and context and when you realise you are in such a greedy place you say you are not satisfied with the offer and leave the place. This is a huge mistake that a lot of artists do. They simply sell their talent to music killers and get stuck, because they believe the only person that can set a fair price tag is everybody except yourself. Remember that it is you that set a fair price and what you want to achieve during your career. Then it's just a matter of selecting places where people pay as much as you give.

If you want to enter the really high level, you need a personal coach that shares your musical responsibility externally and his main task is to analyze how much you currently give, what you currently give and what you should change/add to fulfill the value of your price tag you've decided to put on yourself. He will also help you decide who is paying well and who is trying to steal from you. BTW, this is a cheap way of getting to the top in a fast and easy way... Giving is the key!
Best regards,
YamahaAndy

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-01-2005).]

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-01-2005).]

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#146652 - 03/01/05 10:52 AM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
mikeathome1 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1208
Loc: Syracuse NY
The thing to be careful of is not all bar patrons want live music. I had a friend that keep pitching a bar and finally wore the owner out so he got a chance to play. The patrons were mad, they couldn't play the jukebox or TV, play their favorite games, or just talk they looked at it as an intrusion and left, telling the owner "if I want entertainment I'll go look for entertainment I don't come here for that." Even though he played for free he ruined business that night.

Bar owners want you to increase business If they can make the same amount of money with or without you why would they want to pay you. What is in it for them?

Play for free if it works out and he wants you back he'll hire you.
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#146653 - 03/01/05 11:02 AM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
eddiefromrotherham Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/02
Posts: 788
Loc: Rotherham,England.
Sorry YamahaAndy but I think perhaps you didn't quite understand the author's question
I could be totally off beam here but my reading of it is that here is a man who is merely looking to earn dollars for giving his time and talent for entertaining and there are lots of us with the same down-to-earth approach to life!
Philosophy is not always a provider of dinero
cheers

------------------
Eddie from Rotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info



[This message has been edited by eddiefromrotherham (edited 03-01-2005).]
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http://www.music2myears.plus.com

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#146654 - 03/01/05 11:05 AM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Cost of goods......30%
Rent................5
Utilities...........5
Maintenance.........5
Labor..............15
Management costs...10
Taxes/licences.....15
Net profit..........5
______
Total before music 90%

There are lots of different business models for bars, but this is one several of my clients use. There are several that pay 10%.
Several others charge a cover and it all goes to the entertainment.
10% of a $2000 night is $200.00.

Several of my friends do VERY WELL (like $50,000, plus) working on commission, but these folks are entertainers with a big following. One guy has been at a little hole in the wall for over 22 years..works 4 nights a week and always clears $1000.00 or more.

I have had several deals where I get a guarantee ($125), plus 5% of everything over $1000.00 a night. That generally works out to a little over $200.00 on week-ends.

The challenge is finding a place to work you enjoy that has the potential to do $2000.00 or more a night.

There's nothing more satisfying than building a following and getting paid accordingly.


Good luck,


Russ

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#146655 - 03/01/05 11:19 AM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
YamahaAndy Offline
Member

Registered: 02/20/05
Posts: 88
Quote:
Originally posted by eddiefromrotherham:
Sorry YamahaAndy but I think perhaps you didn't quite understand the author's question
I could be totally off beam here but my reading of it is that here is a man who is merely looking to earn dollars for giving his time and talent for entertaining and there are lots of us with the same down-to-earth approach to life!
Philosophy is not always a provider of dinero
cheers



But if you don't think you should put any energy in making the best out of yourself before you enter the stage and when you perform, then why would anybody choose to pay much for a person that wants to make it easy for him/herself? Artists may have whatever attitude they like to have, if you you have no other higher purposes on stage than to earn a few dollars, you are probably not worth anything more than just that, a few dollars. It is not the bar owners responsibility to take care of the artist's talent and goals. An artist that uses music as a tool for only making a living has set himself "a give if you want" price tag, simply because that artist is not worth antyhing more. I would say such artists have nothing to say about price especially since they cannot compete with those that give! They can try to make a business out of it, but it'll be a cheap and long road. As long as that is enough economically for the musician, it's cool, but often it's really hard. There are also persons that play for free, that is more a decision based on religious beliefs. In my opinion those that give in overflow for free are the ones that have entered the ultimate state of talent and identity. These artists usually need to make money first to be able to hit the final stage.

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-01-2005).]

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-01-2005).]

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#146656 - 03/01/05 11:44 AM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
chony Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/10/04
Posts: 1247
Loc: New York
Andie, did you even read what Eddie wrote?

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#146657 - 03/01/05 12:47 PM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
eddiefromrotherham Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/02
Posts: 788
Loc: Rotherham,England.
Thanks Chony

I rest my case!!!

------------------
Eddie from Rotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

_________________________
Eddie from Rotherham
http://www.music2myears.plus.com

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#146658 - 03/02/05 06:52 AM Re: Percentage of sales gig deals
The Pro Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 1087
Loc: Atlanta, Georgia
This is not some esoteric thought exercise here - it's much simpler than that.

I provide a freelance professional service for my clients and all I have to be compensated for is my time. This is no different from hiring a lawyer or a plumber or any other service. I charge a set fee for the evening or by the hour but I never take a "percentage" of anything, which is just asking for an accounting problem.

My business is entertainment - I'm not a bar/restaurant proprietor. This is an important fundemental point - I am not investing in the business I am serving... the risk for a good turnout is entirely theirs, as is the profit or loss. I've already invested a lot in time, equipment, talent and more in my own business before I walk in the door and it is backed up by my references, my CD, and my word. I will do a great job of providing musical entertainment and being a gracious host under the supervision of the business' designated manager, but that is the end of my obligation. If you can't afford me, it is my duty to my family to find someone who can.

I know that you might be tempted to work something out with small bar owners to establish entertainment where it isn't currently, but I advise against anythihg other than a reasonably good hourly fee. There's more at stake than you realize - your professional reputation is on the line and working cheap is not the reputation you want. If you think all bar owners are cheapskates just wait until you ask for a raise. Better to have a set hourly fee in place - if it's slow you work fewer hours and when it's busy you work more but the fee doesn't change so there's nothing to debate at pay time. Any other arrangement enters you into a joint partnership with the business, and you have to decide whether you want to be an entertainer first or something else.

As for YamahaAndy's rhetoric - I play passionately and to the best of my ability everytime I play. I am a professional and my clients deserve no less than my best always. My references can attest to that - some of my clients have hired repeatedly for many years. If a business wants professional entertainment, the only question should be how much money to pay me and for how long. I become very humble and gracious when dealing with the actual bar/restaurant customers, which in turn helps with my tips and CD sales, but when dealing with the person hiring me I am utterly confident in the value of my services. I have to be.

Just be aware and assume that every word you say to a bar/restaurant owner or manager when you negotiate for your services will be repeated to every other person you'll ever try to get a job from. These guys talk. Besides, they know their business and they know when they are dealing with a pro or some hack, so have your game face and plan ready from the start.
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Jim Eshleman

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