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#122087 - 06/26/03 08:48 PM I played the 2100 , Fantom S, and a few other boards today.
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
I got my first look and feel of the 2100 today. My first impression was.. " gee this seems exactly like my 2000 ". The key feel is maybe a tad stiffer ( because the board was brand new I would surmise ) but still not what I like. The voices and styles sound similar to the 2k except of course the new styles ( very few really that I would use a lot ) and voices. I did like one of the new guitar voices ( I can't recall the name ).
Overall, I like the board well enough that I would buy one, but I didn't find enough difference that I want to sell my 2000 and replace it with a 2100. If, however, I was looking to buy a new Yamaha arranger and didn't already have one, I'd definitely go with the 2100 unless the 2k was available for substantially less.

I tried the new Fantom S ( 61 note version ). I love the 16 assignable drum pads on it. The board seems to have a lot of cool features that I would find useful and it could hold my interest for that reason alone. The one disappointment... I expected better sounding acoustic instruments from a Roland. Some I liked but others.. I didn't care for at all. I don't care for all of the ones on my Motif either, but I like more of them than I do their counterparts on the Fantom. Perhaps it was the sound system that I played it through, but I just wasn't really impressed at all. Too bad, because it has some features that I'd like to have on the Motif.

The pleasant surprise today was the Triton Studio vers 2. I never cared for a lot of the acoustic "bread and butter" sounds on the previous Korg workstations / synths, but this baby sang to me. I didn't get a chance to check out all the features, but from what I did check out, I liked it very much. I could easily see myself owning one of these. I am not certain I'd give up my Motif to get one, but the board defintely has me interested.

I tried out the new "Moog" with the touch screen controller.. ( ok it's not THAT new ). I love it ..but..not enough to plunk down 3500 USD.. Of course if I had money to burn, I'd be looking at it right now in my studio as I type this.

I love trips to the music store.......

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 06-26-2003).]
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#122088 - 06/27/03 09:41 AM Re: I played the 2100 , Fantom S, and a few other boards today.
J. Larry Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/99
Posts: 521
Loc: University, MS 38677 USA
I'm a 2000 owner with the dilemma of keeping or selling or trading up (?) for the 2100. Like others, I've seen the posted comments itemizing little difference between the two. Aside from style and voice issues,I'd be curious to know if the 2100 provides a better overall sound, i.e., clarity, richness, bass, etc., especially when played through an external sound system or recording monitor speaker setup. Anyone tried that?

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#122089 - 06/27/03 11:19 AM Re: I played the 2100 , Fantom S, and a few other boards today.
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
I did not try it. The 2100 was side by side with the 2000 and maybe I should have done a little bit of back and forth referencing withnthe 2k on display there, because my 2000 is customized to my preferences, ie. eq settings, user voices and combinations.. etc. I'm not entirely sure that I'd notice a huge difference anyway, but I'm only basing this on having played the Tyros and the 2000 through the same sound system a while back. They sounded rather similar to me when I referenced shared sounds and styles. I know the answer for me is clear. For my own uses I see absolutely no reason to switch. Perhaps others would gain an advantage.. It isn;t the same as going from let's say the 550 or 740 to the 2000 though. The operating systems are close enough in the 2100 and 2000 that an experienced 2k user can get on the 2100 and probably use just about every function there.

AJ
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AJ

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#122090 - 06/27/03 12:01 PM Re: I played the 2100 , Fantom S, and a few other boards today.
Anonymous
Unregistered


In Portugal, some stores are offering the PSR 2000 units on stock at very interesting prices, around 1200 Euros, so it can be a nice opportunity for a good business.

-- Jose.

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#122091 - 06/27/03 12:21 PM Re: I played the 2100 , Fantom S, and a few other boards today.
trtjazz Offline
Member

Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 2683
Aj, I surmise from what you have said that the T.S. is a vast improvement over the PA?
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html
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jam on,
Terry
http://www.artisans-world.com/

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#122092 - 06/27/03 03:49 PM Re: I played the 2100 , Fantom S, and a few other boards today.
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2227
I've been playing the PSR2100 for about a week. The differences are scant. The main difference is the new voices. None of the new voices will make a significant difference in your style mix, even if you revoice your old styles. The new grand piano is definitely more realistic. There are some good new organ sounds, but there were already some good organ sounds on the PSR2000. The jazz guitar, nylon guitar, classical guitar are all good. The harmonica is a great voice. Voices that are pretty good are the violin and the muted trumpet. There are some new voices that you'll probably never use like flugal horn, oboe, harpsichord, grand harpsichord. The new horn sounds aren't that special. The Aloha guitar has a weird portamento effect that I haven't comprehended. It sweeps up the note like a hawaaian guitar, but this has really made a few of my solos sound horrible.

OK, but there are no new drum voices, no new bass voices, no new acoustic guitar voices, no new electric guitar voices. What makes up the rhythm section of most music? Drums, bass, electric guitar, acoustic guitar. So basically, most of your styles will sound exactly the same.

Apart from the new voices everything is pretty much the same. You get some new styles. Well you can download these anyway and put them on a floppy.

You get about 500mb more flash memory. You get the USB software. No big deal. The bass response on the internal speakers is slightly improved.

If you can get a great deal on the PSR2100 and get a good price for your PSR2000, you might want to trade up, if you really yearn for those new voices. I would try one first and check out the scant differences for yourself.

Beakybird

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#122093 - 06/27/03 06:33 PM Re: I played the 2100 , Fantom S, and a few other boards today.
Idatrod Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 562
Loc: Oceanside, CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Beakybird:

You get about 500mb more flash memory.

Beakybird


Of course you meant 500 "kb". I don't want anybody who doesn't know about PSR's to start drooling. Sorry if I burst anyone's bubble. PS: Did you all know that the new Mid Range Technics KN2600 Arranger Keyboard has SD Memory Storage capability? So with the Technics KN2600 "500Mb" is NOT out of the question down the road. I know they have the 256Mb SD Memory Cards available for purchase and it probably won't be long before they will have a 500Mb Card available. And over time SD Memory Card prices should fall in price dramatically just like the Computer SD RAM and DDR RAM have done. Yamaha better step up the pace and get with it or there going to find themselves eating other Arranger Keyboard Manufacturers dust imho. People are going to wake up and finally realize that they don't have to (and will NOT) settle for these miserly USER Storage Memory options that are currently available on some Arranger Keyboards, Yamaha's in particular. My next Arranger, whether it be a Mid Range one or a High End one has GOT to have substantially more User Memory storage options whether Flash RAM, SD Memory Card, or whichever. There is just way too much storage limitations as it is. Hard Drives are a good thing but it must have the ability to Defragment itself WITHOUT having to dis-assemble it each time and hook it up to a Computer. With USB 2.0 or Firewire this could be accomplished very easily without taking drastic and a potentially dangerous task of periodically manipulating and handling the Hard Drive with the possibility of damaging it. Not Cool to say the least!

Whew!! I'm kinda glad Beakybird (Larry) made that typo. It gave me another opportunity to speak out and let anyone and everyone who has anything to do with Arranger Keyboards know how I feel and I suppose how a vast majority feel in regards to these Memory constraints were all faced with, especially those that own a Yamaha PSR. Unacceptable, Uncalled for, and not tolerable ANYMORE! For me anyways. I'm outta here! as far as sticking with Yamaha's Arrangers UNLESS Yammie starts giving their customers more and better Storage options on their Arranger Keyboards. And I think maybe I'm not the only one. If I look around I just might see others making a mass exodus too. Brand loyalty is one thing but there is a limit imo to how much people will take on important issues like User Memory. When people won't tolerate it any longer and in droves start looking elsewhere for their Arranger needs you can rest assured Yamaha will start doing something about it. But it would be in their best interest imo to do something about it now before that happens. Yamaha's Product Development Team must be asleep at the switch to keep doling out these miserly and piddling Flash RAM capacities. Either that or their very shrewd and conniving using the carrot on a stick approach to entice us and edge us on to keep upgrading ever so incrementally. My hunch tells me it's the latter. And I for one will keep sticking it to them by prodding, poking, and letting them know how I feel and I think at least some of my sentiment is shared by other Yamaha PSR owners. PS: If I didn't care I wouldn't say a thing most likely. I would just search out for another Arranger Manufacturer and drop Yamaha like a hot potato. After Summer NAMM I may anyways after feasting my eyes and eventually playing the new Korg PA1-X. But on the whole I like Yamaha's Arrangers. In many ways they excel beyond the competition. Why not urge them on to start making Arrangers that are "over the top"?. And I use that term in a good way.

Do you ever get the feeling that were jumping through hoops to try and get Yamaha or other Arranger Manufacturers, to listen to us?

I'm outta here!!! Uh, I mean I've got to run an errand. Catch ya' all later.

Best regards,
Mike




[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 06-27-2003).]

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#122094 - 06/27/03 07:37 PM Re: I played the 2100 , Fantom S, and a few other boards today.
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2227
Oops. Uh, 500kb.

If you are attached to Yamaha's mid-level arranger and want the extra storage, you can spend $200 and get an HDM drive like I have.

Not exactly a hard drive. My 128mb card makes it like 81 floppy drives on my keyboard.

It takes 7 seconds to change banks (from the time it takes to read the display of styles in one bank to being able to read the display of songs in the next bank. Then it takes 2-4 seconds to load a style (just like a floppy style).

Of course, you can change banks during your performance. Then when you go to the floppy drive, the styles are immediately visible.

Just an option I want everyone to know about. Now with the PSR2100, you can use the file utility software to organize the files on your HDM banks.

I've had this system for a few months now, on my PSR2000 and now on my PSR2100 and it is very stable.

Beakybird

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#122095 - 06/27/03 09:47 PM Re: I played the 2100 , Fantom S, and a few other boards today.
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
Yamaha is already using smart medi storage on the Motif.. just not on their arangers. I don't wanna beat this subject to death here but I think that just ties into the other thread in which several of us commented about Yamaha putting the best features and effort into ( what they like to call ) their pro boards, and not desiring to do the same with their arranger line.

Terry.. I don't think of the TS 2 a vast improvement over the PA80, really because both boards do diferent things. Kinda like comparing the Motif to the 9k pro or Tyros.. it's hard to do ( at least in my mind ). Both the Ts and PA are very good at what they are made for, just as the Motif and Tyros both excel in my mind for what they are made for. I will say that having played the original Triton stuff and the Karma that I was very pleasantly surprised at how much I liked the voices on the TS2. I've just never thought of Korg wanting to put a whole lot of effort on making quality sounding ac instruments of their workstations. I more or less dismissed earlier models as great dance / hip hop / techno boards, but the biggest shocker to me was that I liked the TS2 acoustic sounds substantially better overall than the ones on the Fantom. I guess that I just expect top notch ac sounds from a Roland, and from what I heard of the Fantom S, I'm disappointed. I'm not looking to replace the Motif at this point just yet... It took me months of effort to just learn the thing. I don't really wanna start from scratch again and I'm still lovin' a lot of things about the Mo, but the notes just drop out way too much and way too often. The 64 note polyphony and the way it is distributed and used on the Mo is bad bad bad... I never get this type of dropout from the PA80 and rarely from the 2000 either. Still, if I do replace it, I'd give the fantom a second look and listen through a different sound system 'cause it's got great features and compared to the Motif an easy to understand OS, but if I don't like what I hear better the next time I try it, then it is not an option for me. On the other hand, I'm gonna give that TS2 a long workout and see if it has the features that I want in my workstation, and see how well I can adapt to the OS, 'cause I already know I like the way it sounds..

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 06-27-2003).]
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#122096 - 06/28/03 09:03 AM Re: I played the 2100 , Fantom S, and a few other boards today.
Idatrod Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 562
Loc: Oceanside, CA USA
AJ, here's some more info on the Fantom S. The cool thing about the acoustic or any other sound is that you can edit them to your liking. I also played the Fantom S (S88) and I thought many of the Preset acoustic sounds were actually quite good, excellent in fact. But it's nice to know the Fantom S has full sound editing capability. Example; Don't like that Pedal Steel guitar? (hypothetical question), then just edit and change it to your liking.

Here is the info:

The Roland Fantom-S Sampling Workstation:
Innnovative features, intuitive operation and Roland's world-renowned sounds...It's all here!
The new Fantom-S sampling workstation keyboards from Roland take music production to the next level. With options for everyone, the Fantom-S has a standard 61-note keyboard and the Fantom-S88 features an 88-note keyboard with Roland’s Progressive Hammer-Action. With flexible user sampling, seamless integration of audio and MIDI, all-new factory sounds and 16 Dynamic Pads—plus onboard mastering and a USB port for easy sample exchange—the Fantom-S/-S88 provide a complete solution for professional music production.

The idea behind the Fantom-S is to keep the creative process flowing. So the Fantom-S/-S88 integrates audio and MIDI in powerful ways. Audio can be sampled using the stereo analog inputs or imported via the USB port from a computer. It can then be assigned to one of the 16 Dynamic Pads, incorporated into a Patch as a waveform or added to a sequence. Audio can be sequenced along with MIDI data in realtime from either the keyboard or the pads. The Fantom-S/-S88 will even automatically stretch audio samples in realtime to match any tempo. This feature is called Realtime Timestretching and basically makes any audio phrase, like a beat loop or vocal riff, elastic.

In addition to being automatically stretched or compressed, samples can also be “Auto-Chopped” in the Fantom-S/-S88. For example, “Auto-chop” can take a sampled beatloop and chop it into 16th note pieces. With each piece assigned to a Dynamic Pad, the beatloop can be rearranged into a different beat using the same sounds as the original. Or, they can be played along with the original loop to create something totally unique. This is a great production and remix tool and the Dynamic Pads on the Fantom-S/-S88 make it even more useable.

The 16 Dynamic Pads provide another control surface in addition to the keyboard itself. They’re not only velocity sensitive, but aftertouch as well! Samples can be easily mapped to the pads or they can play ROM sounds or trigger sequenced (RPS) patterns—or all three at once. Using the pads to trigger internal drum sounds, samples or sequence patterns, along with the keyboard, offers a new level of realtime creative control. And no matter what you’re doing, the Fantom-S/-S88 is always sampling so you’ll never lose a creative moment.

An innovative feature called “Skipback Sampling” captures every idea without you even having to think about it. This function continuously samples everything you’re playing, so if you do something genius and want to capture it, you simply press the Skipback button. This takes everything that you were doing and saves it as a sample. Then you can apply the Mastering Effects to the sample and while you’re listening to that, hit “Skipback” and you have a mastered sample, ready for transfer.

The Fantom-S/-S88 comes with 32MB of sample RAM and is expandable to 288MB. This is an unprecedented amount of sample memory for any sampling workstation and is enough to resample an entire song! Samples can be saved to the 16MB internal flash memory or optional SmartMedia cards. The onboard USB port makes it easy to load .WAV or AIFF files from any USB equipped computer.

The USB port makes importing and transferring data from a computer completely seamless. Just plug a USB cable into the Fantom-S/-S88 and connect it to a computer. You don’t have to load drivers or anything. The Fantom-S/-S88 icon will simply appear on the computer desktop. Now, you can simply drag and drop .WAV or AIFF audio files from your computer hard drive into the Fantom-S/-S88. Likewise, a mastered audio waveform from the Fantom-S/-S88 can be transferred into the computer for making MP3s, CDs, internet distribution or use in a music software program.

The onboard sounds on the Fantom-S/S-88 are brand-new with 64MB-equivalent waveform ROM. Sampled in world-class studios around the world, these stereo-sampled waves are the finest Roland has ever offered. There are hundreds of new Patches and Rhythm Sets and they can also be expanded with up to four optional SRX-Series expansions boards. There are now nine expansion boards to choose from.

The huge LCD screen makes all of this functionality simple. The digital mixer screen and sample editing screen are excellent examples of how graphic editing can be accomplished quickly. The Fantom-S/-S88’s new Mixer View screen makes editing a multitimbral performance more like a digital mixer, using four knobs and the LCD to automate track levels, panning and effects. Also, audio and MIDI can be mixed together. A new Layer View screen offers quick graphic editing for layering and key zones. And with separate reverb, chorus and three multi-effects processors—plus a new mastering processor—musicians can mix down a song just like they’re working in a big digital studio.

"The only real drawback I see on the Fantom S/88 is that it only has 64 note Polyphony. Not being an Arranger of course there should be less need for onboard speakers but it's still a determent in my estimation although not a must have in this case. But as I mentioned before, if you Sample a lot of your sounds, that will free up additional Polyphony for your Keyboard playing. And maybe they will make an expansion card, (if they haven't already), that will increase the Polyphony.

Best regards,
Mike


[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 06-28-2003).]

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