Hi!

I wanted to make a top 5 list of the best piano sounds available on the market today in a keyboard/synth and the price had to go down the better the sound was.

I did some incredible findings:

5.Kurzweil K2600 - Concert Piano - 3499 euro.mp3


4.Yamaha S-90 - Romantic - 2190 euro.mp3


3.Yamaha P90 - GP1 - 1045 euro.mp3


2.EastWest Galaxy Steinway 5.1 - s5.1186191 - 298 euro.mp3


1.EastWest Galaxy Steinway 5.1 - s5.1186189 - 298 euro.mp3





Best regards,
YamahaAndy

Seems pretty silly to compare softsynths to hardware on a simple price basis without adding in the hardware it would take to make the softsynth work. It's not like you could walk out of the music store and go straight to a gig with the East/West pianos like you can the Kurzweil or Yamaha.

In terms of quality of sounds, it would all depend on what type of PA system you are running both the softsynths and hardware on.

Because the differences are not just the tonality of the sounds but the nuances and the details of the sounds. The sound system would aide or impair bringing out those details of the sounds whether it is a software synth or hardware.

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 03-12-2005).]

Of course the Galaxy Steinway is a little under priced if you don't have a computer or a sound card. But this comparison was done partly to proove that instruments can compete even though the price difference might be huge. For instance there is a huge difference in price between the Kurwzeil and the P-90.

>In terms of quality of sounds, it would all >depend on what type of PA system you are >running both the softsynths and hardware on.

Well, more so in the samples we heard, actually both the keyboard and the sound card would have to be connected to an amp so that will not make any of them better sounding. The hardware is of course crucial, so ifyou would need a good sound card for the Galaxy Steinway you would have to add about 1000 euro. The price gap is still huge and for those who already have a computer and a good sound card they get really much sound for a low price tag in comparison.

Best regards,
YamahaAndy

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-12-2005).]

Soft Instruments certainly can compete and often exceed what a generic workstation can do. I know this from playing both through my sound systems, both studio and live.

It makes perfect sense, because there is often as much and sometimes more sample memory dedicated to a single instrument in a vst or multisample as there is in an entire workstation for every sound. Check out Dasample Electroacoustic for example ( 7 day full dl ). I've never heard anything hardware that matches the guitar sound. For lush analog sounds, I can't come close on the Motif ES even with the an150 analog modeling board vs CS80v, Absynth, Z3ta, etc.

The tradeoff is setting all of it up and using it, ie.. making it all work and sync together.. It can be great in a studio if you have the time and patience. Not so great trying to do it live, but it can manageable if you keeep it simple.

I use softsynths a lot. I think going in though one should realize that there is much more setup work than using hardware alternatives. For some, this can be a real creativity killer. It doesn't bother me so much, but I also like working with computers in general and had a blast messing with and programming the old analogs of 20 yrs ( or more ) ago. Still, I tend to use hardware where I can, and software where I need it.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-12-2005).]

Umm, maybe the cost of a controller keyboard should also be included?

--Barry

The Grand of Steinberg????
This is not a comparison, need to take account the keyboard built cost!!!
We are comparing Flower, Apple, Cake and Cheese?!?

Well, whatever conclusion you want to make of the list I posted, I can certainly myself find a few interesting things going on in that list. I have a midi controller, an audio interface and a computer and realise I no longer have to spend several thousands in order to get great new sounds. I think it's really interesting that software synths have taken a huge step forward and can really shine on a record (or live). Some have a really nice price tag too! Being able to digitally play with the sound of the original thing is great!

Best regards,
YamahaAndy

With the launch of NI Kontakt 2 comes new possibilities:

New: 192 KHz, 32-bit sample engine with 64 fold multi-timbrality and unlimited voices.

New: Advanced surround sound features allowing up to 16 channel mix-downs

New: Universal Import ensures compatibility with virtually every sample and library format:

GigaStudio™, Akai™ S-1000™/S-3000™, EXS24™, HALion™, MachFive™, AIFF, WAV, .S™, .SND™, .KSF™, SoundFont2™, REX I & II™, BATTERY 1 & 2™, SDII™, LM4™, Reaktor™, ACID™, Unity™, Apple Loops™, Emu EOS™, ESi™, Roland S-5x, S-7x™, Kurzweil™, Reason NN-XT™, Akai MPC™, Akai S-5000/S-6000™, Pulsar™, Beat Creator™, Ensoniq™, Akai MESA™

MAC:

VST®
Audio Units™
Core Audio™
Core MIDI™
RTAS™

WIN:

VST®
RTAS™
DXi™
ASIO™
Direct Sound™

This is GREAT stuff!

Correct me if I am wrong, but does not Kurzweil come with hundreds of sounds built in. Which would make the cost of the piano sound according to your funny arithmetics somewhere about $30 - way cheaper than the Stainway sample you mentioned?

Of course, one would be stupid to buy a Kurzweil if all they needed was a piano sound - there are hardware piano modules out there (I believe there is one from Kurzweil as well), which give you dozens of piano sounds for $500 or so.

On the other hand, you MUST add to the price of the Stainway sample the cost of the sampler software to play it - I think NI costs around $300. Paying $700 to just play a piano sample is kind of excessive. I am not even talking about the fact that a regular laptop will not get you nearly the polyphony advertized: to get any software sampler close to the maximum specs, you need a fast high-end computer with lots of RAm (1 GB), and a dedicated fast (as in 10000 RPM) = expensive hard drive.

It sounds to me that the MP3 samples you posted above you have copied from some websites, rather than generated them yourself. If you did that, you would find that it is not as simple as just selecting the tone and pressing black and white keys on a keyboard.

I am glad you are enjoying the sound of the software sampler. However, this is neither cheap nor easy, especially if you try using it live.

Regards.
Alex

Alex, the economics or cost profile changes when considering that a keyboard and sampler are fixed costs to be used with many sampled acoustic or other instruments. If you have thousands of instruments (I do) then Kontakt becomes a very small cost. But it is not just about costs - it is also about performance/cost ratio, etc.

My total software based system is very easy to use for live performances. It is complete substitute for a hardware based arranger including vocal harmonizer. It works! It sounds great! It is reliable! It is easy to tailor to fit my needs! And so on!


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 03-13-2005).]

Thanks for the post, it makes this thread a little more in balance.

Frank,

I have been keenly following your posts, and have tried experimenting with software based synthesizers and samplers. I found that the laptop I had (an AMD 2200+ laptop with half a gig of RAM) was nowhere near adequate for playing more than a few voices. I have a new, faster laptop, and hope to give it a try sometimes soon, though most laptops have an issue with the speed of their hard drives - not fast enough for streameing samples. Either way, to do it right it is neither simple nor cheap, though once you have it all set up, it may be reliable. I recall you mentioning the fact that your system, while is of very high quality, is also expensive, due to primarily the cost of the software. Sure, software based solutions give one the flexibility to get very high quality of samples, but they come at a cost.

Anyways, the issue my post takes is with the silly arithmetics that YamahaAndy uses, rather than with the doability of softsynths.

Regards,
Alex

Ok, so now the most of you have been disagreeing on the arithmetics. I can understand. Now it's my turn to have my point of view.

Professional gear is designed to fit the needs of professionals, often that is recording centered. If you need additions soundwise you are able to go in different directions. You can go in the hardware or the software direction. What has been the case for the last couple of years is that the software market has become a heavy market. Open a Keyboard magazine these days and you will see more than 50% of the advertisements and articles consisting of software. In this kind of a situation when digital software based music production is about becoming a standard among professionals and HD recording is something very popular, I think it's fair to make the arithmetics I did. The price tag of the software becomes very essential and when comparing it with the hardware it is cheaper to go with a software. So comparing the price like I did, may be too radical from an amateur's point of view, but from a professional's point of view it is getting close to what the reality is like.

Best regards,
YamahaAndy

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-13-2005).]

You are right, YamahaAndy. The professional needs are not on the same level of needs. They needs quality for production, because the music is listened by everyone. They will spend money to get the necessary quality. For me, I have no time to make computing before playing music. I have a High performance PC at home studio, but I use it less because I don't want to spend energy with my "mouse"....

bbc, it is extraordinarily difficult to know exactly what spending your energy on a mouse means. I spend very little time with the mouse.

I startup my computer and it is up and running in about 30 seconds and from there I control everything from my controller keyboard. It can't be any simpler than that can it? Yes, it takes considerable effort to setup a software based system but once you got it up and running there is nothing to it other than making music!!!

Alex, the main costs are associated with the high end samples (virtual acoustic instruments), e.g., Bardstown Bosendorfer Piano, Garritan Strings and so on. With respect to computers there is nothing particularly unique or costly. You need at least one separate drive at 7200 rpm and a high quality soundcard to take advantage of the superior samples. These are not high cost items anymore. I am certain you can setup a high quality system (hardware & software) for $3500 - in the price range of a Tyros but of much better quality. The Tyros has a small advantage with the control surface but with my Roland A-37 I can do everything from this controller keyboard.

Again, I am merely trying to show that the software based solution is a viable alternative to hardware.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 03-14-2005).]

Also don't forget that when you buy the latest greatest hardware instruments you have placed your well being in their (the mfgrs) hands. I've been there - done that.

Case in point.

When Roland introduced the S50 in the 80's I bought 2 of them and 3 S10's. I also bought the entire available sample libraries. Worked fine until about 1991 when the disk drives started wearing out. So I called Roland and requested they send me a whole "S*** load of drives since they were "special drives". And they better Also send me one for my MC500 since it was "special" too. Well darn would'nt you know it, according to Roland they only support their gear for 7 (Yep "seven") years. Well seeing as I had over 10K worth of their junk that was fast becoming good only for boat anchors, I asked why they would not continue to stock parts for their loyal customers. The reply was that (quote) "well we expect our loyal customers to replace outdated gear". Of course I protested and stated that I have 2 Hammond C3's built in the 50's and I could order any part I ever would need (if per chance one of them broke, which they never have).
Needless to say, I said, well Roland you know what, I am a musican with finite resources which you will never get not one more cent of - ever. Anyway don't forget to factor into your cost that you better be done with your hardware keyboard in 7 years. Me myself, I got a room full of em and there ain't one of them sounds as good as my samples played off the computer.
http://dskittlethorp.photosite.com/Dans_studio/


Regards,

Danny


[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 03-14-2005).

[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 03-14-2005).]

Yamaha knows this as well. That is probably why they bought Steinberg.
Starkeeper

The Demos sound very good. Will try their demo.
Starkeeper

People today play music with a computer. Even, a computer can do many things that the keyboard can not do. I want to be in front of many keyboards than 1 computer. This is a real pleasure. The sounds of VST are good, no one can say it differently. Anyway a good keyboard with sampling inside is more pleasant than VST. Oasys may be is a solution, it's a mix of 2.