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#122050 - 03/13/05 01:29 PM Re: Listen, the cheaper the better! :)
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Alex, the economics or cost profile changes when considering that a keyboard and sampler are fixed costs to be used with many sampled acoustic or other instruments. If you have thousands of instruments (I do) then Kontakt becomes a very small cost. But it is not just about costs - it is also about performance/cost ratio, etc.

My total software based system is very easy to use for live performances. It is complete substitute for a hardware based arranger including vocal harmonizer. It works! It sounds great! It is reliable! It is easy to tailor to fit my needs! And so on!


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 03-13-2005).]

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#122051 - 03/13/05 01:39 PM Re: Listen, the cheaper the better! :)
YamahaAndy Offline
Member

Registered: 02/20/05
Posts: 88
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
Alex, the economics or cost profile changes when considering that a keyboard and sampler are fixed costs to be used with many sampled acoustic or other instruments. If you have thousands of instruments (I do) then Kontakt becomes a very small cost. But it is not just about costs - it is also about performance/cost ratio, etc.

My total software based system is very easy to use for live performances. It is complete substitute for a hardware based arranger including vocal harmonizer. It works! It sounds great! It is reliable! It is easy to tailor to fit my needs! And so on!


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 03-13-2005).]


Thanks for the post, it makes this thread a little more in balance.

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#122052 - 03/13/05 07:44 PM Re: Listen, the cheaper the better! :)
Alex K Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 732
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
Frank,

I have been keenly following your posts, and have tried experimenting with software based synthesizers and samplers. I found that the laptop I had (an AMD 2200+ laptop with half a gig of RAM) was nowhere near adequate for playing more than a few voices. I have a new, faster laptop, and hope to give it a try sometimes soon, though most laptops have an issue with the speed of their hard drives - not fast enough for streameing samples. Either way, to do it right it is neither simple nor cheap, though once you have it all set up, it may be reliable. I recall you mentioning the fact that your system, while is of very high quality, is also expensive, due to primarily the cost of the software. Sure, software based solutions give one the flexibility to get very high quality of samples, but they come at a cost.

Anyways, the issue my post takes is with the silly arithmetics that YamahaAndy uses, rather than with the doability of softsynths.

Regards,
Alex
_________________________
Regards,
Alex

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#122053 - 03/13/05 11:38 PM Re: Listen, the cheaper the better! :)
YamahaAndy Offline
Member

Registered: 02/20/05
Posts: 88
Ok, so now the most of you have been disagreeing on the arithmetics. I can understand. Now it's my turn to have my point of view.

Professional gear is designed to fit the needs of professionals, often that is recording centered. If you need additions soundwise you are able to go in different directions. You can go in the hardware or the software direction. What has been the case for the last couple of years is that the software market has become a heavy market. Open a Keyboard magazine these days and you will see more than 50% of the advertisements and articles consisting of software. In this kind of a situation when digital software based music production is about becoming a standard among professionals and HD recording is something very popular, I think it's fair to make the arithmetics I did. The price tag of the software becomes very essential and when comparing it with the hardware it is cheaper to go with a software. So comparing the price like I did, may be too radical from an amateur's point of view, but from a professional's point of view it is getting close to what the reality is like.

Best regards,
YamahaAndy

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-13-2005).]

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#122054 - 03/14/05 03:09 AM Re: Listen, the cheaper the better! :)
bbc Offline
Member

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 45
Loc: France
You are right, YamahaAndy. The professional needs are not on the same level of needs. They needs quality for production, because the music is listened by everyone. They will spend money to get the necessary quality. For me, I have no time to make computing before playing music. I have a High performance PC at home studio, but I use it less because I don't want to spend energy with my "mouse"....

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#122055 - 03/14/05 05:06 AM Re: Listen, the cheaper the better! :)
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
bbc, it is extraordinarily difficult to know exactly what spending your energy on a mouse means. I spend very little time with the mouse.

I startup my computer and it is up and running in about 30 seconds and from there I control everything from my controller keyboard. It can't be any simpler than that can it? Yes, it takes considerable effort to setup a software based system but once you got it up and running there is nothing to it other than making music!!!

Alex, the main costs are associated with the high end samples (virtual acoustic instruments), e.g., Bardstown Bosendorfer Piano, Garritan Strings and so on. With respect to computers there is nothing particularly unique or costly. You need at least one separate drive at 7200 rpm and a high quality soundcard to take advantage of the superior samples. These are not high cost items anymore. I am certain you can setup a high quality system (hardware & software) for $3500 - in the price range of a Tyros but of much better quality. The Tyros has a small advantage with the control surface but with my Roland A-37 I can do everything from this controller keyboard.

Again, I am merely trying to show that the software based solution is a viable alternative to hardware.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 03-14-2005).]

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#122056 - 03/14/05 05:22 AM Re: Listen, the cheaper the better! :)
pianodano Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 122
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia
Also don't forget that when you buy the latest greatest hardware instruments you have placed your well being in their (the mfgrs) hands. I've been there - done that.

Case in point.

When Roland introduced the S50 in the 80's I bought 2 of them and 3 S10's. I also bought the entire available sample libraries. Worked fine until about 1991 when the disk drives started wearing out. So I called Roland and requested they send me a whole "S*** load of drives since they were "special drives". And they better Also send me one for my MC500 since it was "special" too. Well darn would'nt you know it, according to Roland they only support their gear for 7 (Yep "seven") years. Well seeing as I had over 10K worth of their junk that was fast becoming good only for boat anchors, I asked why they would not continue to stock parts for their loyal customers. The reply was that (quote) "well we expect our loyal customers to replace outdated gear". Of course I protested and stated that I have 2 Hammond C3's built in the 50's and I could order any part I ever would need (if per chance one of them broke, which they never have).
Needless to say, I said, well Roland you know what, I am a musican with finite resources which you will never get not one more cent of - ever. Anyway don't forget to factor into your cost that you better be done with your hardware keyboard in 7 years. Me myself, I got a room full of em and there ain't one of them sounds as good as my samples played off the computer.
http://dskittlethorp.photosite.com/Dans_studio/


Regards,

Danny


[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 03-14-2005).

[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 03-14-2005).]

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#122057 - 03/14/05 10:08 AM Re: Listen, the cheaper the better! :)
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by Bluezplayer:
Soft Instruments certainly can compete and often exceed what a generic workstation can do.

Yamaha knows this as well. That is probably why they bought Steinberg.
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#122058 - 03/14/05 10:18 AM Re: Listen, the cheaper the better! :)
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by Bluezplayer:
Check out Dasample Electroacoustic for example ( 7 day full dl ). I've never heard anything hardware that matches the guitar sound.

The Demos sound very good. Will try their demo.
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#122059 - 03/14/05 10:39 AM Re: Listen, the cheaper the better! :)
bbc Offline
Member

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 45
Loc: France
People today play music with a computer. Even, a computer can do many things that the keyboard can not do. I want to be in front of many keyboards than 1 computer. This is a real pleasure. The sounds of VST are good, no one can say it differently. Anyway a good keyboard with sampling inside is more pleasant than VST. Oasys may be is a solution, it's a mix of 2.

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