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#121375 - 08/27/01 09:03 AM Re: psr 2000 or 9000pro???
sk880user Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 1255
Loc: United States
Dear Beakybird,

No problem friend. First of all, I want to thank you for spending the time to detail the difference between the two keyboards. Yes, you were expected to list everything 100% and no where in my post implied that you should only list some of them. My post is different than yours and has completely different purpose and different perspective. Your post lists all the features. My post simply comment on these features.

Some of those who are looking for recommendation, simply need the feature list. But others they might need more. I found out by talking to people that sometimes they want to know if this feature is useful, needed, or worth the extra money... so on and so forth. My post was simply that and of course from my own opinion and from my own perspective.

I have tested PSR740 and PSR9kpro. In my opinion, I found out that PSR9kpro is overpriced. Yes, I do like the extra features, but it is not enough to justify 200% price increase over PSR740. Now most people disagree (and some very strongly) with me and that is fine.

If I want to get a recommendation about a keyboard, I would like to hear both opinions: why this feature is not worth it and why it is worth it from totally different perspective. Mine was one of those perspectives.

By the way, I made a case for PSR9Kpro in terms of the harddrive, ram, and better sequencer.

Cheers

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#121376 - 08/27/01 09:53 AM Re: psr 2000 or 9000pro???
DNA Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/01
Posts: 31
Loc: Fremont, CA USA
Since user-sampling on the 9000Pro has come up several times on this and other threads, I'd like to put my 2 cents worth in on this subject. I've created a few sampled instruments, though I'm certainly no expert. I'm sure there are others on this list with as much or more experience in this area and I suspect most would agree that creating quality instrument samples is a very time consuming, sometimes tedious and frustrating experience even under the best of conditions.

My personal conclusion is that if it is possible to buy good quality sampled instruments, it is well worth whatever it costs. Otherwise, you should use the best analog instrument recordings available or the best mics and recording tools as well as the best sampling software.

Unfortunately, the 9000Pro does not import the commercial instrument sample formats (not even Yamaha), only raw AIFF and WAV files. Therefore, you can't use any of the fairly large collection of samples available.

Secondly, the sampling tools built in to the 9000 are very basic and I don't believe contain even simple crossfading capabilities. (I'm basing this on the 9000Pro Owner's manual.) This means that you probably won't be able to create decent looped samples of anything but the most simple waveforms.

I'd be interested in what 9000Pro owners have to say, but my opinion is that its limited sampling capability isn't likely to be of much value to most users and therefore isn't a good justification for buying the 9000Pro.

David Altekruse
_________________________
-David

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#121377 - 08/28/01 06:08 AM Re: psr 2000 or 9000pro???
merlin2812 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/18/01
Posts: 20
Hi Uncle Dave,
I've red your post about psr9k VS 740, and understand your point. But, for a non pro use of a board, is the 9kpro a good board to play with, and do you beleave it worth its price? The real question is: for someone like me, who is not a professional, will I be able to enjoy the "+" that will give me the 9k compare to the 2k? I'm afraid to become frustrated by such a great board by lack of knowledge, missing the best parts of it... Whatever, tell me what you think!

Thanks,

Merlin

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#121378 - 08/28/01 06:13 AM Re: psr 2000 or 9000pro???
sk880user Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 1255
Loc: United States
Merlin,

One good point that Uncle Dave mentioned is that 740 is not suitable for easy and convenient professional live performance. Let me give you an example. If you want to transpose, you must select the transpose button first, then you must increase it or decrease it and then you must press exit. This is too much work to do for one simple task. All other tasks are the same even changing the tempo! Of course, you can get used to it.

The good news is that PSR2000 seems to be redesigned. I looked at it and it has different layout. So I need to try it before judging it.

For myself, I want my 10 sliders, they make my life very easy.

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#121379 - 08/28/01 07:09 AM Re: psr 2000 or 9000pro???
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2227
Merlin, I play the PSR 740 professionally, and it blows people away. Of course the PSR 9000 and 9000 Pro are superior keyboards, but they come with a big price tag difference. For me what has made them prohibitive is the difference in weight. I'm not doing one high paying gig a night like Uncle Dave is. I'm doing two or three gigs during the morning and afternoon hours.

I would think that the PSR 2000 would be more than enough for the needs and dreams of a non-professional player. That's my two cents worth.

Larry

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#121380 - 08/28/01 08:10 AM Re: psr 2000 or 9000pro???
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
I have used both the 740 and the 9000 professionaly. Of course there is a difference, but not to the audience. Nobody noticed. The main drawback on the 740 to me was that the Vocal input wasn't as good, and the Harmonizer can not be muted by simply assigning a footswitch to that function.
I found a work-around by using Registration memories, but never was really satisfied with the vocal sound.
DonM

[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 08-28-2001).]
_________________________
DonM

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#121381 - 08/28/01 11:16 AM Re: psr 2000 or 9000pro???
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2227
I find the vocalizer on the PSR 740 to be adequate. The problem with the vocalizer, in most people's opinion, is not the quality of the harmonies but the lack of volume it's capable of putting out. Fortunately, the PSR 2000's vocalizer is supposed to have improved headroom and the capability of producing an extra harmony. It also has some dedicated buttons for the vocalizer, so it will be easier to make changes on the fly.

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#121382 - 08/29/01 01:35 AM Re: psr 2000 or 9000pro???
COMALite J Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/99
Posts: 86
Loc: Shreveport, LA, USA

Some comments on the expansion board thing. Beakybird wrote, “The PSR 9000 Pro takes expansion cards that expand wave rom and allow for such things as emulation of wind instrument sounds and killer organ sounds.” Then sk880user replied, “I hate expansion cards. how about you make everything already installed and built in for the same price. That is a point against PSR9kpro.”

Beakybird, the Yamaha system of expansion boards, now called MSPS (Multiple Synthesis Plugin System) and formerly called PLG (the individual cards still use model names beginning with PLG) is much, much more than just expanded wave ROM. Other digital instrument manufacturers (Roland, Korg, etc.) may be satisfied with using whole expansion cards to do work that a simple memory stick could do, but not Yamaha. While many of their cards do indeed include more wave ROM (most notably the PLG-XG and PLG-PF cards), not one of the cards is only wave ROM. All of them also add at least an additional effects engine, and all but the PLG-VH card also add actual sound generation engines. Even for the XG and PF cards, where the sound engines are just plain old AWM2 wavetable playback, that still means additional notes of polyphony dedicated to the new voices, leaving the 126 or whatever the 9000pro has still free for all of its own on-board sounds!

Sk880user, you miss the whole point of expansion cards, especially when done the Yamaha way: namely, cards can come out later to add features that did not exist when the unit was originally designed! Without expansion cards, to get such new features, you would need at least an outboard MIDI tone generator unit with the sounds or technology you want, and may even have to completely move up to a whole new keyboard! The first device that could take Yamaha PLG cards was the MU100R rack-mount Level 4 XG tone generator, and it did come with its two PLG slots already filled: one VL card, one VH card. Those were the only two cards that existed then! Since then, new cards have been made that were created long after the MU100R was designed, and yet not one of them is incompatible with the MU100R (though you would, of course, have to remove one of the two included cards to make room for it)! Saying that expansion cards are a bad idea for keyboards is like saying that expansion cards are a bad idea for PCs, and that PCs should already come with every possible function that you might ever want! (Note that every personal computer that ever tried that idea didn’t last long in the market unless and until they moved to the realm of expandability: one of the major selling points of the original 1984 Apple Macintosh with 128k of RAM was that it had everything built-in and would never need expansion! Now look at the current Mac G4s with their USB and FireWire ports on the back [the latter of which, by the way, are compatible with Yamaha’s new open mLAN standard, a vastly improved musical connection system: one mLAN cable is equivalent to upwards of 100 audio cables and up to 256 bi-directional MIDI cables — in any combination!], and as if that weren’t enough, they have PCI and AGP slots as well! Other examples of personal computers that never wised up in this regard, or did so too late, and so are no longer with us, include the Atari ST and the Timex Sinclair, etc.) Even if Yamaha put every PLG feature that exists now into the 9000pro, what about others that might be invented later (case in point: a card that added the synthesis power of the FS [Formant Shaping] series of synthesizers, that expands greatly on the older FM technology used in the current DX card — if Yamaha doesn’t release such a card within a year or two, I will be very disappointed in them!)? Without slots, there would be no way to add them!

On the other hand, why have to pay for still more features that you might never want to use? If Yamaha had added all the powers of the DX and AN cards, but you only play music from before the onset of rock, those features would be pretty much wasted on you. Yet you would be paying for them anyway. This applies to the PC world as well: if you don’t need a four-figure professional OpenGL 3D card, why pay for one? But if you do need one, buy it and plug it in!

And finally, the 9000pro actually does already contain the powers of at least two of the PLG cards: the XG and the VH, and perhaps the PF as well. You could still add those for more polyphony and effects engines in those respective areas, I suppose. And, I personally wish they had included the VL card functionality (if they can do it for PC sound cards based on YMF chipsets that retail for around $15, they could easily have done it to the 9kpro without too much of an increase in cost, though it would probably have required the somewhat more expensive circuitry found in the PLG-VL card, since the YMF chip makes the host CPU do much of the work), as that would have given a set of solo brass, wind, string, etc. sounds that would’ve put the Sweet voices to shame in not only raw sound quality but realistic expressiveness as well — not to mention the ability to make more such voices of your own invention, without sampling! Listen to the sound file I’ve posted links to in such Topics as “The Search for the Perfect Sax,” etc. for an example of what even the cheapest VL (my $15 PC sound card) can do.


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#121383 - 08/29/01 06:47 AM Re: psr 2000 or 9000pro???
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Joel,
Thanks for another illuminating explanation.
I tried a couple of times to return your call, but haven't caught you yet.
I want your advice about getting the 2000 PLUS a laptop for lyrics, midi file play, etc. Seems like this might be a good way to go until the Yamaha 10,000 arrives in a year or so.
DonM
_________________________
DonM

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#121384 - 08/29/01 07:00 AM Re: psr 2000 or 9000pro???
sk880user Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 1255
Loc: United States
COMALite,

First of all, may I thank you for the well written explanation of expansion card?


Although I agree with you about what expansion card does for Yamaha and the benefits of it. I still think there is some problems with it in terms of cost for the musicians:

1) We cannot compare the pc to Yamaha keyboard for the simple reason that Yamaha makes all of its own expansion cards and it charges the price it wants for them.

2) If expansion cards are used to add features not readily available and designed, that will be fine. But it seems to me that expansion cards are a way to make extra money by simply making certain features optional by simply not including them in the original design of the board anyway.

3)From my past experience with yamaha, those cards are very expensive even when their keyboards are overpriced anyway.


Expansion would be something nice if it is open to all manufacturers. This requires the following:

a) expansion cards are standardized in that all keyboards accepts the same cards. So you can buy Yamaha, Korg, Roland, GEM and buy those expansion cards and still work with any keyboard.

b) any company can manufacture them.

So you would buy a general keyboards with maybe 10 to 20 expansion slots and buy all the cards you want from any manufacturer depending on the price, quality and features.

But that idea, although it is ultra beneficial and super vital to the musician, will simply be not as profitable to those companies. It will lead to better products and lower prices on the expense of hurting the market share of those traditional companies. It will encourage new companies to enter and compete.

I thank you for your post again.

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