.

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 09-04-2007).]

Im on the fence with a 50/50 opinion right now .....I'll need further investigation.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-28-2007).]

Blast away ....... you'll still be lugging that G70 in that COFFIN and hear NO sound from the speakers ... oh yeah - it DOESN'T HAVE speakers ! hahahahahaha


OK - got that out of my system.
This board is awesome. It take ssome tweaking, like most do. It took forever to get the Yamaha EQ right...luckily, the mixer section is EZ to operate.

I have only a few more things to iron out:

1) I'd like a dedicated volume for the sequencer that doesn't affect ANYthing else.
cc11 could do this if I can find the midi recieve section that allows it - so far - NG

2) I'd love the tempo lock to be memorized between the style play and the song play mode. ( might be possible...not sure yet ) It could be embarrasing if you call up a sequence and it stays at the last tempo called up from the styles.

3) I miss the slot for the music rack ( which I won;t use )...I put my business cards in it !

Fran - speak your mind ... no one takes you seriously anyway, unless you're spewing Roland bantor. hee hee.....

I bought one!I also bought a roland g70.You can e-mail me at grassrootsinc1@aol.com.Ive used the 800 on 8 gigs so far.A few early observations,great sounds,esp bass and drums.Like the way the bass stays with the chords.I use full range for chord recognition. Actually,Ill get back to you on this.Its 5.am Iam
off to get more sleep! Charles[chas]

I purchased the PA800 after attending seven night Keyboard Festival because the one I played with all week sounded vibrant. When my purchase arrived it sounded bland and dull out of the box...it just did not sound like the demo model and just did not ring my bell.
I suspect that the show model had the pre-version latest 1.5 OS installed.

I bought one and was embarrassed by the way it sounded. In all fairness, it didn't have the latest OS. I suppose if I had spent countless hours tweaking every style it would have been o.k. It has lots of good features, including size, weight, key feel, vocal harmonizer. It just sounded "dead".
DonM

No wonder why you dumped it quik & got a S900 I t was the fastest turnaround I ever saw you do Don.......made me go Mmmmmmm? But I knew if YOU did it there was a Very Good REASON!

I sell and have the SD5, SD1+, and the PA800.

I love the sounds of the PA800, operating system, weight.

I love the styles and fullness of the Ketron styles, especially the latin stuff, which no one else so far in my opinion comes close.

The PA800 I think is the first step for Korg in getting a arranger that is giving others a run for their money,

I've owned the T2 and I think its a great all around board, but in my opinion lacks a little in the live sound ( I know beaten to death ) but also the bottom end doesn't have the fullnes of a Ketron or Korg

.

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 09-04-2007).]

this just sticks in my mind !!!

Donny, as I said, maybe the new OS helped, but they had their shot at me and it didn't work for me.
DonM

OK - I'll be fair.

The first night I used the PA800 I was underwhelmed with the overall tone and presence. The EQ and Bose tone settings were all tweaked for the PSR3k, so it's not fair to slam Korg yet.

The second night, after making a few changes and being in a different room ... I was WAY impressed. It was 100% change. I tweaked the mic input, the master EQ, the Bose preset etc. and I was soooooo happy.

We all get into comfort ranges after a time, and it's hard for anything new to replace those worn-in, faded jeans we love to wear around the house.

As for me - you all know my priorities;
1) VOCALS
2) Bass and drums
3) Everything else

So....how does the PA800 stack up for me?

1) BEST vocals I've had so far in any keyboard. Best use of harmony triggers.....slider for volume, left/right assignment on the fly - just awesome tone and flexibility. I LOVE the way my voice sounds in this system.

2) Bass and Drums are right on par with the Ketron, which I always thought were the best. The fill-ins are vague and random, but the tones and "live feel" are amazing. Boo always liked the way Korg has many patterns that are 8 measures long .... I agree - it randomizes the feel and makes it less important to fill as often.

3) Everything else - it's all there. Great tones. WONDERFUL clarinet, Cornet, Sax ... I love the grand piano sound. So much more playable (in my style) than the psr series. It's deep and rich with great attack in the high range. Wonderful dynamic allocation of voices - I can't make the 120 note polyphony drop out. It's a breeze to play once you know Korgs road maps.

Summary:

This is the most perfect board FOR ME at this time. Nothing else has my top 3 priorities handled as well. The speakers are terrific, the weight and look are awesome and the key feel is strong and solid, the way I remember quality synths from back in the day.

I retired my 3k to the studio, but after playing the Korg, I just HATE the way the Yamaha feels .... I'll probably trade it for another PA800 when I get a few bucks together.

I am 98% satisfied with this keyboard. If I can get the fillin's to cooperate better - that will make up the 2% difference !

Hi Uncle Dave,

your informative review really perked my interest in possibly buying a PA800 all the way up to the last line. For me, the ability to trigger fills at will when performing is important, as this provides important live spontaneity to an arranger performance, so please elaborate about how good the PA800 fills sound, and how well they work (sync) to the style.

Perhaps you might provide aditional comment on the TC Helicon Vocal harmonizer as well. As a standalone Voiceworks owner, curious how the one in the PA800 compares (sound quality/features).

Thanks. - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 08-30-2007).]

Scott (and others).

The issue I've had with the entire Korg PA series has always been the fills. When pressed (of-time/not on the one), 2 things happen.

1. The fill volume rises. When I asked the Engineer at NAMM, I was told this was intentional as within a live band, when a fill is introduced, it's usually louder than the rest of the variation - to which I'd say let me use DYNAMIC control and introduce this when/if I want.

2. They are not perfectly in sync with whatever variation you are coming FROM (they are well in sync with whatever variation you are going to). As an example, try a 8 beat style ... then at measure 5 or 7 (on the up-beat), press any fill or break and ... hear what happens. Try to press the FILL at the wrong time i.e NOT on the down-beat.

Other's views on this are welcomed too.

AJ

Im happy for you dave with your new ax........what an opinion stretch Don M is embarrassed playing the Pa800 in his post above.....& you Love it!!

After playing one twice Im 50/50 only because I didn't tweak anything on it and played it as is...could I get it to sound better .....I dont know?......would I switch for my SD1+ No way.

Personal Preferences Rule Supreme always

This issue with the fills confuses me. There must be something absolutely amazing about the Korg's sound for such an obvious (and long talked about) issue to still not be a deal-breaker.

Smooth flowing, natural sounding fills are one of the hallmarks of a good live band, and any volume increase (if there even IS one!) is subtle, at most. But jerky timing... never!

Diki go try one so you can make a personal opinion on the fills and what ever else the Pa800 holds.....or have you already played one? Im sure you can make an informed opinion in a few minutes.

I played a PA60, and was completely underwhelmed. The fills felt, unless you hit the 'one' perfectly, like they were 'punched in' rather than flowed naturally.

From how others describe the problem, it seems like not much has changed...

PA800 fills?
OK, here's my take on all this:
First:
they are writable, so if you really had to change them, you can. Korg lets you erase ANY part or ALL parts of the styles and customize this board to your liking. Easier said than done .... writing like a drummer is tough. PLAYING like a drummer is tough.
Second:
They are not a deal breaker for me because the other strengths push it over the edge. The ability to trigger the harmonizer from either hand on the fly is HUGE for me.

Here's a scenario that many of you may identify with.

You're playing an arranger pattern with LH chord triggers. You WANT to scroll through a laptop list or MP3 list, or even on board sequencer list........ you can swith to RH chord recognition, and use your left hand to search. This is big for me because of laptop placement. Also the drum style buttons are on the left, so .... same deal

Is the harmonizer as good as teh standalone units? So far - yes. I'm sure there are editable parameters that you can "finnesse" on the stand alones, but for an all-in-one unit .... this is the best I ever heard. The response is right on the mnoney, harmonies are beautiful, effects are believable and they track beautifully.

I'll record something very soon to sjow you all how I use the harmonizer in a slightly unconventional way. It's kinda my "signature" sound...something that I lOST when I went with Yamaha. I didn;t care for the Roland harmonizer either, but I only heard the Disc-5, not the G70. If it's the same unit - I won't like it.

I had a long, fun day at the shore - my last for the summer at this one restaurant. Now I have a double on Sunday and them school starts Tuesday! Back to the books... no more weekday music jobs....just a steady Friday night.

I'll try and keep reviewing the PA so prospective buyers can be better armed when they shop.
Here's a quick list for you:

Vocalizer:
PA800
SD-1
all the rest

Key feel:
PA800/SD-1
Roland
Yamaha

Sounds:
too many sub catagories here - they are ALL good, but for bass and drum sounds:
SD-1/PA800
G70
Yamaha

Simple styles:
Yamaha
Roland
Ketron
Korg

Complicated/intricate styles:
Ketron
Korg
Roland
Yamaha

Speaker tone:
PA800
X-1, and successors
PSR series
E-series

Weight/size:
PA800
PSR/Tyros series
Ketron
Roland

Bang for the buck ( with SPEAKERS ):
PA800
PSRs900

(withOUT speakers)
SD-1
Tyros
G-70 ( SOooo big and heavy )

It's late - I'm tired ........ add your own plus' and minus'! Happy shopping !
UD

fill-ins in korg's arrangers were always like that: little bit out of sync, erratic and only two of them.

even tho the korg sounds are so good, i found the styles in roland (especially new e series) to be perfectly balanced between very "correct" (yamaha) and "funky/live" (korg) and so, i prefer roland.

when i had my korg, i didn t like it had only two fillins, and i hear now is the same, even if theoreticly now there are three of them.

but nevertheless, pa800 should be a gooood keyboard to play with. congrats!

.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 09-16-2007).]

Other uses on other sites that have read this post are confused, as they do not have any problems with the Fills.
Are you sure you are not hearing what you expect to hear, rather then what is actually happening. (According to psychologists this happens more then we think)
Another point to ponder over

Bill

The only point to ponder is that the fills stink....its somthing Korg hasnt addressed since the pa days.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-31-2007).]

Not all of the style fills "stink". IMHO, of the 419 preloaded factory styles, about 30% of the fills and/or intros/endings could use some improvement. A point that Dave made; you can edit, change, modify, fills, intros, endings to suit your needs and tastes.
Ciao,
Jerry

edit the bad fills?

Is it the sound/music quality of the actual fill style pattern itself, or getting the fill to 'syncronize' with the style pattern when triggered that's the problem?

sync is terrible

Must be a personal thing. Or perhaps the particular styles that are used. I have no problems with fills on my Pa1x pro, in fact, they're more accurate than a lot of live drummers I've worked with. This myth was started by someone awhile back and is now parroted as gospel, mostly by non-Korg owners. Just check and see who is offering the strongest opinions. 'nuff said.

chas

Scott go try one in a store if you can find one....& then you have your own opinion on the Korg fills....

I searched the Korg forums for this topic and found the following thread.
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21389&highlight=fill

According to what they say the issue is the instruments that play in the fill are not the same as the ones playing in the style, so if you do not hit it just right at the beginning of the measure then it sounds wrong.

That's what I'm going to listen for on my next try-out.

Graham

Graham

Graham......Nice detetcive work now we're getting somewhere

they ARE out of sync. probably some of them, i can not remember exactly. if you don't hit the button in the exact milisecond, your gone.
i am a former korg user, and played with more than one korg model. if this is repaired, one day i will be again. ...maybe!



[This message has been edited by adimatis (edited 08-31-2007).]

Sorry guys, I had played the PA60 and now the PA800, and NEVER had trouble with the Fill ins, with either model, I guess if you are not to acurate in your timing, I really do not know.

I sold the PA 60 a little before I got the PA800 to a colleage of mine here and I asked him about this topic, his reply, he does not have or had any problem with that, and that makes 2 uf us, in another forum, also was the topic, and there, most of the users did not have trouble. Go figure??? ;-)

Fran,
You're in trouble anyway. With or withOUT smilies !I will test your overweight, oversized G70 before I tell you (again) that the PA800 harmonizer works better.

well, a good programing for the fill-in is EXACTLY this: no matter if my timing is not acurate, the fill-in pattern would have to play just as smooth. maybe from the next bar or measure, but SMOOTH. korg does it like a hiccup, i am sorry, but that it is. i am too lazy to search, but i am pretty sure i still have some of my old pa50 recordings, i could even prouve it.
but nevermind, for alot of people this seems to be just a very small and not important thing. good for you.
for me it was big. good for me - as now i play a different instrument!

The whole IDEA of the fill concept is that you should be able to trigger it at ANY time during the bar until usually the last quarter note (or eighth if it is a slower style), and it flow smoothly, no matter what.

Having to hit it at any particular beat just to make it work right is NOT part of normal fill operation, at least AFAIK...

Two way to fix in PA.

Choose style sync (measure instead of real time),then you'll have Yamaha like precise and great timing fills.

Volume problem in fills (also some are 1/2 fills - like in bossa style) you need to copy and transfer from simpler style.

Go to Korg web site,download great and simple yamaha styles(like old 9 k) 8 beats.Korg's 8 beats are too contemporary,they forgot to put more simple beats and cleaner back ground accomp(muting some tracks will not always work since you need simpler strings or ride sound (with less busy riff like accomp) in 3rd or 4 th variation .

Good point here is each (individual -track and tone )is huge in Korg(almost ALL sounds have the quality of sweet,cool voices) (plus full blown workstation type synth and sequencer editing power in KORG(since they use same synth engine main board minus full efx;unlike the competition combined since Korg has big 3rd party workstaion patches)

(Like Yamaha wins in 3rd party styles comparing all others combined) .


I also think that 2 fills are too limited for a pro arranger(with 4 variations).simpler vari 1 -busy fill 1 or 2-simpler vari 2 doesn't work.Bad design (OK for 1993 's I3 but it's a shame that they refused to change it in 2007).Sounds are improved but main arranger must-haves are somewhat lacking IMHO.It's a KB with workstaion in mind(great sounds and editing,great seq and editing).Great for studio.But not a KB with arranger in mind compared to a cheaper PSR (bad keys,bad hardware,weak drums,not that great VH,somewaht thin XG backin'in some styles(except MEGa,SA and cool/sweet etc).But PSR is an arranger and shines in ARRANGER functions (SMF with style drums,pads playing loops even before PSR 2000 -PA 50,60,80 can't do that -it's a relatively new feature for KORG -only in pa1x and 800),light weight,GREAT OS with less button pressing ,smooth fills and variations that are DESIGNED TO SUPPORT THE VOCAL TRACK)and so on).


Weak OS in KORG like needing to press 2 buttons(just for the menu) if you want to go from 8 beats to bossa(same is true for patch select,too).

If Korg can steal some Yamaha 8 beats -simple rock and latin styles ,put 4 fills that are simpler, they will sell like Yamaha too.

Good luck.

Korg needs yamaha team for OS and some Hardware(buttons)change , Yamaha need to put more drum and bass samples from MOTIF XS in their arrangers and everybody will be happy.



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 09-02-2007).]

OK, I'll add:

Yamaha styles:

Intricate
Articulate
Smooth
Flawless flow
Not busy
Natural progression per variation
Minor tweeking for volume balances at times

i have just gone through 30 random styles on my PA1X version OS 3.01 and played fillins , endings breaks etc randomly. They all transitioned smoothly. I have owned the PAx for coming up to two years and never had a problem with fillins or variations in volume or changes in instruments during the fillins or poorly timed fillins. I dont know if this was a roblem with the PA series when they first came on the scene but i am surpised that these things are being reported on the PA800 which is a relatively new comer on the scene . I can catagorically tell youthat the PA1X at least since OS version 2 and onwards does not have any timing issues with regards to fill ins. I would be shocked if this were truly the case for the PA800.

i've had the pa800 for 7 months, and the fills work fine.

The old PA80 were bad, the one thing is if you in variation 1 and hit fill 4 you will notice a difference because the fill is more complicated.

To be fair ... it's not EVERY fill-in, but when they pop up, they sure do make me blink !

Well, that may not be the definitive post, but it sure beats all this denying there's ANYTHING wrong at all...

How about listing the styles that DO have problems...? Secondly, is there a Korg forum where you can ask Korg why these particular styles still have problems? Is there a Korg user forum where users can edit the problem styles, and post fixed versions? And finally, is there a way to replace the ROM styles with edited versions, so all this can go away?

Let's face it, if Uncle Dave says there's a problem, there's a problem.

The trick is, can you get Korg to fix it, or do you have to fix it yourselves? They seem to be pretty good at bringing out upgrades to the OS... Why not upgrade the styles (like Roland did with OS3) and remove this little problem (that is not so little to some)...?

fwiw, i have owned both the pa1xpro, and the pa800,and the fills were a problem on both units, not so much the timing, but the volume. they always seemed, (were?) a lot louder than the variation you were going from.yes this could be tweaked, but with korgs experience in this field i was very surprised no real changes were apparent (at least to me) on the pa800...the other BIG issue on both the boards was the way korg arranged the effects blocks, with only 2 insert effects available, and also the insert effects not being directly available when creating your own sound, and then trying to access it via midi...in fact the effects issues i spoke about with paolo tramanoni from korg on several occasions, and all he cold get from korg was that was the way korg designed the hardware...its a problem also with the sd1+ in that any sounds you create with insert effects cannot be accessed via midi with the insert effects intact...seems the only brand to accomplish this rather simple system is yamaha.
dennis

Oh, there's a problem alright. The problem is - Korg programmers seemto be trying to show us everything their arrangers CAN do instead of what the SHOULD do. Now, I know that's a loaded statement. No one can predict what everyone will like, but there is a specific change in instrumentation, volume and feel for lots of fills. That's just not what I'm used to.

I swear .... it's like having the Ringo Star quartet during the song and then the Steve Gadd sextet at the fills. I'll work on a solution....mark my words ! lol

I doubt if Korg could win, as if they fixed the styles that some people complain about, then the ones that currently do not complain, (They haven’t found any problems with the styles) will probably start complaining that the styles no longer do what they want.
A No Win situation

Bill

One of the problems with as flexible a system as the Korg's (use ANY fill to go to ANY variation) is that, that just isn't how fills work...

Fills, essentially, do one of three things. They either BUILD intensity, into a higher intensity variation, or the LOSE intensity, as they head for a lees busy variation, or they stay the same intensity, to return to the same variation.

Problems will always arise if you use the wrong one at the wrong time (or is that the wrong one at the right time?!), and you use a fill designed to go from a really busy variation to a slightly less busy variation, in a situation where you are going from the simplest variation to the next simplest.

It's nice to have that degree of control (I wish Roland's had it as an option), but you REALLY have to discipline yourself to try to always use the right one, most of the time. Save for the few times you REALLY want to do something out of the ordinary, being consistent with your choice of which fill goes to what variation will probably avoid at least SOME of those 'surprise!' moments.

Is there an 'Auto Fill' option that picks the right fill for you, based on your destination variation? This is the system Roland use, and I find it, most of the time, pretty spot on for transitions, but at the expense of being a bit more predictable (when you don't want it!)...

But it all boils down to one of my main requests to arranger makers (other than a nice Chord Sequencer!)... Instead of four fills, or six or seven (currently the most in a TOTL arranger), the fills would ALWAYS be spot on if there was a separate fill for each and every transition, including fill-to-same.... So this would mean (for a four variation arranger) a total of sixteen fills.

Now, that sounds like a LOT of work for the style creators, but actually, it isn't. The HARDEST thing to do on a style is to create a fill that works for multiple uses. It's a LOT easier to design a fill if you know exactly where it is coming from, and where it will go to. So, although 16 fills would be a bit more work, it actually would take less time to get right...

Everything can be rewritten (everything is RAM like in Korg WKstations - like prog and combi mode).so all 300 plus styles can be replaced(change fills ,intros,variations etc) + also you still have user style slot.

I still think Yammy's 4 fills OTS approach is more practical IMHO(although KORG sounds better in VH,Drum n bass department and overall output).



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 09-04-2007).]

Here's the same fella doing something a bit harder using plenty of fills, and they all sound in the right place at the right time to me. Check it out, doubters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiE3inr4AOo&mode=user&search=

Renig, I kinda like this guy good to find some music other then middle eastern to give us a sense of the pa800's abilities.....he's definitly into his music, very passionate and doing his thing...love the lighting on his videos & camera angles....the fills are definitly more accurate then on the Pa80 ...good find

Thank You