Since XGWorks is cropping up again in posts from users like Pilot, I thought I'd reopen an old wound for discussion. To my knowledge Yamaha abandoned XGWorks about a year ago now. The last versions went to v3.x, and some music stores are still selling what few copies remain. A Japanese-only v4 was released but Yamaha said it wouldn't be available in English.

Yamaha never provided instrument definition files for XGWorks and their latest keyboards, most notably the 9000 Pro and Tyros (though the Tyros owner's manual does mention XGWorks as the software program of choice - has anyone tried XGWorks with the Tyros?). And you can't create your own instrument definitions in XGWorks so at least on my 9000 Pro with XGWorks you can't even select any voices other than the XG voices, much less edit them. At first it looked like Yamaha was going to provide OPT voice editors for all of their top keyboards and throw their support behind Sonar 2.x as a replacement for XGworks, but they provided OPT's for the Tyros and that was all. (more about OPT: http://www.yamahasynth.com/pro/opt/index.html) This is a drag because the voice editors which come with their PLG-series voice expansion cards work only with XGWorks and nothing else. I would have thought since the voice expansion cards work in the omni-popular Motif that Yamaha would rush to make OPT voice panels for the PLG cards but they didn't. Yamaha never even released a basic XG OPT voice editor, which defies common sense. While there are many stand-alone XG editors around, OPT panels are meant to work within the sequencer program. XGWorks has wonderful XG voice editing within it's sequencer application, but you can't choose or edit any of the other internal voices of your keyboard with XGWorks if you own a Tyros or 9000 Pro (and probably others like the PSR-2000 but I haven't checked).

So XGWorks is abandoned and crippled, and Yamaha has left many of it's keyboard owners and PLG users adrift when it comes to software for sequencing and voice editing. I sent Yamaha support and Steve Deming in particular several questions about all of this last year and asked what their plans were to provide either new instrument definitions for XGWorks or OPT voice editing panels for the keyboards that have no voice editing apps currently. Steve responded on behalf of Yamaha that they would get back to me. That was last year... I'm still waiting...

[This message has been edited by The Pro (edited 05-22-2003).]

I totally understand where you're coming from... I have a PSR-550 and I have the same problem when using XG works in regards to the lack of "instrument difinition" for my keyboard. That's really a**holish of Yamaha to just drop this support. They could have at least provided the definitions for the current gear if anything.

Squeak

XG works was a staple program for me when I had the PSR740. The XG editor allowed me to edit voices to great detail, and the 740 itself has virtually no edit capabilities from within. It also allows me to edit the sounds of my AN150 and VL150 Motif plug ins, but storing these voices within the Motif is a hassle. The PSR2k allows for more editing power than the 740 did, and although it doesn't allow the detail available in Xg edit, it is often enough that I can modify it's voices to my liking.

Lack of support for the 2k and the voice storage problems has led me away from the program to an extent. I use Sonar so much more because of the dxi / midi effects plug in capabilties along with the abiltiy to add user instrument files. It's unfortunate too, because in some aspects, although the XG works sequencer is not as advanced as the on in Sonar, it's interface is in some ways more user friendly and easy to access.

I really enjoy my Yamaha boards ( Motif and PSR2k ), but this is another case for me of Yamaha just doing whatever it wants to and not considering the needs of it's customers. I have similar issues though with my PA80 too though, so this isn;t just a Yamaha thing for me. Korg gave us many new user styles ( free ) and some decent software to convert styles, etc, but the one major thing lacking is a software voice editor that can unleash the editing power of the board in an interface ( ie. computer screen ) that is easy to work with. Scrolling through all of the screens when editing a voice on the PA80 is maddening at times. I've tried using external generic patch edit applications such as Midi ox .. etc, but really it seems to be more trouble than it's worth. Software that is dedicated to the board itself would be a lot more helpful. It sems to me that in a lot of cases as soon as a board is released, these companies are so busy working on the next greatest and latest that they tend to almost ignore the product they just put out, leaving the users to their own devices.

By the way James, I remember reading somewhere ( maybe it was here even in an old thread ), that someone had devised or was working on a way to add user patches to XG works. If I could only remember who and where or better yet figure it out myself...

AJ

I heard thru the grapevine of 'rumor' , that instead of developing XGWorks further, Yamaha, will be offering OPT 'plug in' software which will add 'Yamaha specific' enhancements to Cakewalk Sonar. My primary midi/audio sequencer of choice is Cakewalk Sonar, as it already provides 'instrument definitions' for all my keyboards (including the Tyros), so my ONLY real need for XGWorks is for accessing & editing Yamaha exclusive 'XF chord name' data, which is not recognized by Cakewalk Sonar. I like the idea of the new Yamaha-Cakewalk OPT 'plug in' approach as it will effectively allow us to sequence exclusively in one program: Sonar!

My Tyros keyboard comes with an impressive PC Windows based 'voice editor' which allows you to edit Tyros voices from your PC (via USB connection), but an OPT Voice Editing 'plug in' would more conveniently allow keyboard 'voice editing' to be performed from within Cakewalk Sonar.

I'm hoping that Steve Deming at Yamaha USA might read this and clarify what the future plans of XGWorks are, as well as tell us if/when Yamaha plans to release OPT plug in software which will add Yamaha 'XF file' support and 'voice editing' capabilities from within Cakewalk Sonar. Thanks in advance. Scott

I believe it was Pilot who did the instrument definitions for PSR740 and PSR2000 for XGworks.
Starkeeper

Scott: Please look again at the disks which came with your Tyros - I am all but certain that it includes an OPT voice editor that you can use with Sonar right now. I saw OPT programs listed as included software, along with the stand-alone voice editor you mentioned, in a PDF of the Tyros owner's manual. If I'm correct, let me know how you like it.

hi Jim (Pro): I re-checked the 'Voice Editor for Tyros' and you're right, it indeed says it's utilizes OPT technology.

Perhaps I'm confused about the way OPT (open plug technology) is supposed to work. Though the 'Voice Editor' can run alone, or concurrently with Sonar, I don't know how to configure it to launch from 'within' Sonar. I would also expect that the OPT voice editor would allow you to save and then automatically load 'custom edited' voice editor settings with a specific Sonar song as well. I haven't explored or experimented with the Tyros voice editor in this way yet, but would be interested in hearing from others who have, to find out exactly how the 'voice editor' works with Sonar.

Scott

XGworks isn't dead yet. According to Yamaha UK it's their top selling software. It's just that they've stopped developing it. However, it's a good match for the 740 and almost as good for the 2000. If you want my updates for the 740 and 2000 you can find them on Jorgen's website at home7.inet.tele.dk/js/musik/740pages/ . Click on PSR links/Software and look for XGworks and XG Editor. You get access to the whole synth except a few new effects on the 2000. There are two update zip files, mainly because XGworks has two sets of instrument definitions. The 2000 updates are not a bad match for the Tyros but obviously some stuff will be missing. If you want to do your own updates download mine just to see what's involved.

Squeak, I'm just working on the 550 instrument definitions for you but I have a question. The manual states that the midi program change numbers run from 1 to 128 whereas every other PSR I've looked at they run from 0 to 127. Could you confirm this by sending a few program changes via XGworks to the 550 and seeing which instruments are selected.

I'm using XGworks almost exclusively now and find it does everything I would like. I miss the CAL language from Cakewalk but I can always dump a midi file and load it into Cakewalk if necessary.

Bryan

Stopped developing it over a year ago, no new updates forthcoming, no support for current instruments... that's my definition of dead. Obviously that hasn't prevented Yamaha from continuing to sell XGWorks and even continue to promote it in the manuals of new instruments like the Tyros. So they must be banking on the hope that people who buy it won't be upset at the program's lack of full functionality with their "flagship arrangers".

Yamaha has provide stand-alone editors for all their PLG boards. Although they are not all OPT, when used with Midi-yoke or Hubis' loopback software (both free)they all can be used alongside any sequencer(not just Sonar)just like the long promised OPT editors(same goes for XGEdit). Maybe thats why they haven't been in a rush to redo all the editors in OPT. Yamaha is getting out of the software business....

DudeManCentral

I own four of the PLG boards and know this is not true. For example, here is Yamaha's statement about the voice editor for the PLG150-PF (acoustic piano board): "Comes with the PF Easy Editor plug-in for XGworks, allowing for easy graphical editing of voices". That's the only software that CAN edit the voices of the PLG150-PF in fact so owning XGWorks is a necessity to tweak the board sounds. The only stand-alone editors for the PLG series I know of are for the DX and AN boards.

BTW: this is an email I got from Steve Deming 6/24/2002:
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They are working on the OPT panel for 9000PRO. I will keep your case in research till I hear it's complete, so I can notify you. They've got a lot of panel to work on so it may take a little while.

Regards,

Steve Deming
Yamaha Customer Support
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All questions I have sent ever since then about this "9000 Pro OPT" have gone unanswered.

There are several problems associated with XGworks.

1. The biggest market is Japan, followed by Europe. North America is a distant third. XGworks for western countries is handled by the UK. There's no expertise in North America.

2. There's some politics involved. There's a sharp line between the Home and Pro divisions of Yamaha. I don't know which one is reponsible for XGworks but I suspect the Pro division because XGworks is definitely slanted toward stand alone synths like the MU series. Adding stuff for PSRs was an afterthought. Most of the PSR tables actually point to MU synths or CVP tables so you don't get the proper definitions.

3. The PSRs have extended the effects mapping beyond the original XG spec. The effects map in XGworks is only 8 bits wide whereas later PSRs have extended this to 24 bits. This means that the effects menus can't be displayed properly and odd anomalies appear in dialog boxes if you add the extended effects. Also some internal tables limit the number of basic effects so even if you add them the parameters won't display. This requires a major change to the XG Editor to fix these problems. Then you run into backwards compatibility problems. Not only do you have to write the code but also update every table for every synth.

4. At least it's possible to add new instrument definitions if you know what you are doing. Takes a bit of effort though.

5. XGworks was very much on a par with Cakewalk but Sonar is a long way ahead so a complete update of XGworks would be required with no guarantee that it would sell enough to recoup development costs. Much cheaper to write plugins for Sonar which is what they seem to be doing. It's probably the best way to go. Leave XGworks for the older instruments and go with SOnar. Now that Logic is out of the picture for PCs there's only Cubase left so Sonar can only go up.

Bryan

Hmmm, your right about the PF board, but they do have them for all the others (note* the PC and DR boards shipped with a OPT editor). Look at the yamahasynth site for the downloads.

I didn't realize that the PLG150-DR came with an OPT editor... mmmmmm... now that's more like it: the ability to add insertion effects and edit the drums from within Sonar and the drums would reside on their own card thus freeing up even more polyphony for my 9000 Pro's keyboard sounds. 32note/25MB and about $200. Editing drums was what I was doing with XGWorks the most anyway (I despise reverb on the kick). Now this will give me something to chew on. Thanks for giving me the idea...

[This message has been edited by The Pro (edited 05-23-2003).]

Just as a follow-up to my original topic from last month, I just got a reply from Steve Deming of Yamaha (June 23, 2003). My question was whether Yamaha was going to release voice definitions for the 9000 Pro and their XGWorks program, or provide 9000 Pro OPT voice editing panels. It appears that the answer is, as expected, neither:
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Our Product Information Department (part of Customer Support) was renamed Web Planning and given responsibility for the entire Yamaha Corp. of America web presence. The upside is, our website is improving overall, the downside is things like Instrument Definitions are much lower on their priority list. I don't think there's going to be an OPT panel for the 9000 PRO. I've already sent a request to Japan through our liaison, but so far, nothing. I wish I had better news.

Regards,

Steve Deming
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I appreciate Steve looking into this, although his message a year ago stated that they were already at work on an OPT voice editing panel for the 9000 Pro. Guess not. I get the feeling that Yamaha is trying to ignore the 9000 Pro and make it just go away.

Pro

As I mentioned in another thread which you don't seem to have read, I have constructed the XGworks definitions for the 9000Pro. If you're interested I can ship them to you. If not, not to worry.

Bryan

Thanks Bryan. I did read your earlier post, but I use Sonar mostly these days and already have the 9000 Pro's definitions for that program. Creating those definitions for XGWorks was a nice thing for you to do though, especially with all the work involved.

Hi Pro

What do you do for XG sysex, assuming that you use the effects via midi? I wouldn't think that Sonar had any XG built into it unless the OPTs have come through. At least XGworks will give you 5 DSPs and multi part as well as reverb and chorus in its current version (3.0.7)

Bryan

Hi,
I've been adding Bryan's definitions for the 9000pro to my xg works. I'm ever so grateful that he's gone to all the trouble.

Had originally started to try and do it myself, but I would have botched it bigtime.
Had no idea how much work he's obviously put into it.
Seems such a pity that they stopped developing the program as I love the fact that it can use the psr styles. I much prefer it, to using Band in a Box.

best wishes
Rikki